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65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross

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Read about Jesus: The humble prophet of God – His life, Crucifixion & his death 
 
Author:  Imam I. H. Kauser
 
Empty Tomb in Resthaven Memorial Park in Texas, USA

Empty Tomb in Resthaven Memorial Park in Texas, USA

The Tomb of Jesus  (courtesy of www.bibleistrue.com)
 
Click to Watch Video: Govt. of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir! 

1.   Why crucifixion?

Jews wanted him to be killed through crucifixion, so they can prove that Jesus is not a beloved of God, rather the curse of God is on him. Jews could have killed him easily as they were in hundreds of thousands in number and very strong. If killing should have been their desire, they could have done it easily. Just like they paid thirty pieces of silver to one of his disciples, if they would have paid him more, he might have done this service too. But they wanted him to be crucified so they can prove that he is not from God, rather he is an imposter and a fabricator. If he was from God, then God will definitely save him. May be that was the reason that Jesus was so reluctant to suffer on the cross.

2.   Who wanted him to be crucified?

Two of Jesus’ disciples commented (in Luke 24:20) as follows:

And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. (Luke 24:20)

They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the Governor said what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying Let him be crucified…. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (Matt 27: 22-25)

3.   Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews

When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. (John 19:6)

The Jews answered him (Pilate), We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (John 19:7)

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Suggested Reads:

Jesus in India | Slides

Christianity: A Journey From Facts to Fiction

Truth About The Crucifixion

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4.  One incident and many aspects?

  1.  Romans took it as punishment of sedition.
  2. The Jews made it as a punishment of blasphemy.
  3. Jesus considers it a killing, when one of his disciples betrayed him.
  4. Christians think a sacrifice presented for our salvation.

Who is right?

5.  Why Jesus was hiding?

That’s why the Jews paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas giving them the necessary information about Jesus.

Neither go into town, nor tell it to any in the town.  (Mark 8: 26)

And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. ((Mark 8: 30)

6.  Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:

Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.            (John 26: 36)

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.   (John 26: 39)

…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words.   (John 26:42-44)

7.  God always hears his prayers and his prayers were heard

And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I think thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always.       (John 11:41-42)

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.  (Hebrews 5:7)

8.   An Angel was sent to strengthen Jesus?

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.  (Luke 22: 43-44)

9.   Pilate delays in judgment

Pilate intentionally delayed in giving his verdict and did not deliver his judgment until and unless he was sure that due to the Sabbath, Jesus would be on the cross for only a few hours. Jesus a thirty-three years young person was on the cross for only few (3-6) hours.

10.  Pilate’s complete favor to Jesus

Pilate was in complete favor of Jesus, considering him innocent, and for his wife’s dream, was trying to save his life. That’s why Pilate wanted to use his special right to free one person, but the Jews did not let him do it.

Pilate said unto them, whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas or Jesus…. But the chief Priests and the elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. The Governor answered and said unto them, whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said Barabbas. Matt 27: 17-21)

11.   Pilate’s wife sees a dream to save Jesus

When he sat down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.”  (Matt 27:19)

Why was this dream was against the purpose of the advent of Jesus, to give his life on the cross? Her dream should have been that crucify him immediately. Let him finish his work. But her dream was against it. Although her dream was so special that it was mentioned in the Bible.

12.  Pilate finds him “Not guilty

 … Pilate … he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person. (Matt 27:24)


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Click to read Prophet Confucius: His testimony for one God and against Pauline Dogma
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13.  
Earthquake, eclipse & a storm – A sign of God’s disliking & anger

An earthquake, eclipse of Sun and a Storm, all three occurred just after the crucifixion is a clear sign of God’s anger.

Now from sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. (Matt 27:45)

…the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. (Matt 27: 51)

14.   Pilate marveled

And Pilate marveled if he were already dead. (Mark 15: 44)

When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.

15.   The other two (thieves) next to Jesus were still alive so they broke their legs

Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. (John 19: 32)

16.   Blood and Water – a great sign of Jesus’ life

When a soldier pierced a spear in Jesus’ side, blood and water gushed out from his body, with full pressure, is a sign and a witness that Jesus’ heart was still pumping and he was alive

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. (John 19:34)

Why coming of blood and water is so important that the narrator of the incident specially describes:

And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. (John 19:35)

The person has put all stress on the truth of this witness, because of the great importance of it.

17.  Why the soldiers checked Jesus alive or dead, piercing him a spears. What was the criteria, then to recognize?

The concept that one of the soldiers pierced Jesus a spear to check him, either he is alive or not, does not make any sense until and unless there was really a way of checking this way. Piercing Jesus a spear or some other way? What was that? How did they do it? Because one of the soldiers pierced a spear in Jesus’ body. Not to check his life or death. Otherwise they should have done the same with other two also.

18.  Jesus legs were not broken

But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs: (John 19:33)

19.  Jesus was not buried in the grave

The Jewish custom for the last thousands of years was to bury the deceased in the ground. Because the disciples knew the predictions, which were made earlier by Jesus Christ, they kept Jesus’ body in a sepulcher. If they had buried him in a grave, he would have died. But his disciples placed him in a roomy “Sepulcher?” Rather then burying him in the ground according to the Jewish custom and traditions.

20.   Neither Jews nor Christians are sure about Jesus’ death on the cross

There was a very strong earthquake, a storm and an eclipse of sun just after the crucifixion of Jesus, that made all Jews and Romans run away from the sight. That is why; neither Jews nor the Christians are sure about the death of Jesus on the cross but a gesture.

21.    The stone on the sepulcher was removed

(For a spirit, does not need to remove the stone)

Jesus forbade Mary Magdalene to touch him.

Touch me not. (John 20:17)

Why?

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Click to read: Prophet Zoroaster : A Witness against Pauline Dogma
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22.  Jesus said, “ He has not ascended yet. What did he really mean?

Jesus said unto her (Mary Magdalene), touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. (John 20:17)

What are the real meanings of ascension here, when Jesus said to Mary “I am not yet ascended to my Father.”

Certainly, it was understood and very clear without any doubt that Jesus had not ascended yet, while he was standing just in front of her. Then why Jesus said that he was not ascended yet?

23.  Mary did not react, when she saw Jesus alive. Why?

24.  Disciples were terrified seeing Jesus. (Luke 24: 39)

25.    Jesus ate food, in the presence of his disciples.

… he said unto them, have ye here any meet? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them. (Luke 24:41-42)

Jesus saith unto them, come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who are thou? Knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. (John 21: 12-13)

A spirit does not need any food but our physical body, which becomes weak after a while, without having food. Why Jesus needed food, if he had gone back to his original body of God.

For forty days he was meeting his disciples to assure them that he was alive and now going to the lost sheep of house of Israel, as he promised and assigned by God like Jonah was assigned to the Nin-e-viets.

 …many infallible proofs being seen of them for forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.  (Acts 1:3)

26.    Jesus never showed himself to the Jews (who challenged him) after he was saved from the accursed death of cross.

27.   How come Jesus never said “I was dead and now I am alive?

28.  Jesus’ prediction about his sign to be very similar to the sign of Jonah

Jesus predicted his sign would be similar to the sign of Jonas.

An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall be no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s bally; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.  (Matt 12:39-40)

This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Nin-e-vites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation…for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.         (Luke 11:29-32)

Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the bally of the fish three days and three nights. (Jonah 1:17)

And Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land. (Jonah 2:10)

And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it preaching that I bid thee. And Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh.  (Jonah 3:1-3)

  1. Jonas entered into the belly of whale alive- Jesus died on the cross and entered in the heart of the earth dead.
  2.  Jonas remained alive in the bally of whale. – Jesus Remained dead.
  3.  Jonas came out alive bodily.Jesus came out in spirit.
  4.  Jonas stayed three days and three nights in the bally of whale. – Jesus one day and two nights.
  5.  Jonas went back to his people. – Jesus went back to heaven. Without fulfilling the promise which he made earlier, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  (Matt 15:24)

Jesus should have gone to the lost tribe of Israel, as Jonas went to his people “Nin-e-vites”, not to heaven.

29.  Appearance of an Angel, saying, why, you looking for a living person into the dead.

And it come to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seeketh ye the living among the dead.   (Luke 24:4-5)

And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.    (Luke 24:23)

30.  The stone of tomb was removed

It was a physical body not a spiritual one:

And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher.  (Luke 24: 2)

31.   Jesus’ prayers against his death on the cross

Jesus prayed again and over again, saying, O God, take this cup away from him. Why he prayed against the purpose of his advent?

And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me….” (Mark 14:36)

If his escape from the death on the cross was not possible then why Jesus was praying for it? Didn’t he know?

32.    Jesus awakening his disciples, requesting for special prayers for his safety

“…saith to his disciples, sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder…. And began to be sorrowful and very heavy…  And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and said unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray…” (Matt 26: 36-41)

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Click to read: Prophet Buddha: A Witness against Pauline Dogma 
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33.  Jesus’ in flesh and bones after he had risen

Jesus showing his hands and feet to his disciples, proving and arguing them, that he was alive bodily.

They were terrified and affrighted and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, why are ye troubled? And why do thoughts are in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see for a spirit hath no flesh and bones, as you see me have…. he shewed them his hands and his feet.” (Luke 24:37-40)

34.    Why Jesus needed the body (Flesh) again?

35.   Jesus’ wounds- a great sign of his survival

Jesus through showing his wounds to his disciples was proving that he was alive bodily:

The other disciples therefore said unto him, we have seen the Lord. But he (Thomas) said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of his nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe… Then he said to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: be not faithless, but believing. (John 20: 25-27)

A Spirit can’t have the wounds. It means he was alive bodily.

Why Jesus addressed Thomas “not to be faithless but believing? Jesus advised Thomas to have faith, but in which and what? Yes! Faith in the fulfillment of the promise of God saving Jesus from the accursed death on the cross which Jews had designed for him.

Why Jesus had a physical body after he had risen from the dead? Why this physical body still had the signs of wounds? Now there should have been nothing but his soul and spirit? Did he want to take these wounds along with him to the heavens to show them to God? If that is the case, then, we know very well, that these wounds alone did not kill him, but many other things including the cross. If he needed the proofs of his service to be presented to God, then he should have taken all his wounds including, the signs of flogging, beating, hitting, kicking, spitting and the cross (piece of wood) on which he was crucified.

36.   Jesus prayers and God’s response: (Hebrews 5:7)

37.   Hungry Jesus, asking for food

He ate fish and a honeycomb.

38.    Jesus’ shroud: -“Shroud of Turin” a sign that Jesus was alive.

And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth.” Matt 27:59)

39.    Using 100 pounds of aloes, myrrh and some other spices on Jesus’ body, as the manner of Jews. Whether Jews use 100 pound of myrrh, aloes and some other spices at their burial? Or there were some special arrangements were made for Jesus’ safety. Nicodemus, who was a physician and a disciple of Jesus, made this special arrangement before the crucifixion of Jesus:

And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to burry. (John 19:39-40)

40.    Jesus said “I am going to ‘Galilee’ before the disciples.”

41.   An error made by the Jews: – “….the last error shall be worse than the first.” (Matt 27:64)

Jews accepted that they had made an error. What kind of error had they made?  Now they were afraid not to make another error. Did they make another error? Yes! They did.

42.   Why Jews bribed the soldiers?

Jews bribed large money) the soldiers who had been assigned to guard the sepulcher.

And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken council, they gave large money unto the soldiers.”(Matt 28:12)

They bribed the soldiers to hide the fact. What was that?

43.   Empty tomb of Jesus (the sepulcher), is a great Mystery. Jesus body was not found in the sepulcher.

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Mother Mary wants all Christians to be Muslims! The Doctrine of immaculate conception
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44.   Jews were afraid of a conspiracy: -

Jews were sure, even ahead of time that his disciples will definitely announce, “Jesus had been ascended to heaven” as it is mentioned:

“…Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, after three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulcher be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal his him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead.”(Matt 27: 63-64)

45.   Jesus’ crucifixion- a test of Jews

The crucifixion was made criteria for Jesus’ truth.   The Jews at the time of crucifixion said: -      “…save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.” (Matt 27:40)

Let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.”(Matt 27:42)

He saved others; himself he cannot save.”(Matt 27:42)

46.   Could Jesus save his life? If he is God then perhaps he could.  If he could then it is a suicide.

But, he was constantly pleading to God the Father for the bitter cup to be taken away.

47.   Pilate’s complete favor for Jesus; _Pilate; the Governor tried his best to save Jesus’ life, because of his wife’s dream.

48.   Jesus never demanded “Crucify me”, but the Jews demanded from the Pilate, “Crucify him- crucify him.”

“Then all say unto him, Let him be crucified.” (Matt 27:22)

49.   Jesus defended his case in the court, argued with the Jews, and refuted their accusations. Jesus never said, “Hurry up crucify me, for I have come, just for this purpose, although I am already 4000 years late, going by the Biblical calendar and time of Adam and Eve.”

50.   Jesus never went to the cross happily, but in miserable situation.

51.    Who compelled Jesus to be crucified and why?

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St Paul The 13th Apostle?  Do Read
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52.   Jesus said: “For salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22) What it means? And why only for the Jews?

53.  Crucifixion – a killing in the eyes of Jesus.

Why go ye about to kill me? (John 7:19)

But you seek to kill me. (John 8:40)

For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.   (Mark 9:31)

54.  Jesus complained to God, why have you forsaken me? It means, God for his safety made a promised.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, Lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, My God, why have hast thou forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)

55.  In Jewish law, the “Crucifixion” was an accursed death”-

“…for he that is hanged is accursed of God” (Deut 21: 23)

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for ud: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3: 13)

56.  Why the disciples of Jesus, when they met him in Galilee, still had  some doubts?      “…Some doubted” (Matt 28:17)

What kind of doubts and what about?

Did they have doubts about Jesus being alive and saved from the accursed death of cross or some thing else?

57.  Jesus said,   “Even so every good tree bringth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringth forth evil fruit.” (Matt 7:17)

How come that this heinous crime of persecuting him mercilessly brought such a good result?

58.  Making his arrest is a greater sin

Jesus answered (to Pilate); He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” (John 19:11)

How a greater sin can bring salvation to the world. Sin means, being disobedient to God, breaking His laws and commandments.

“…the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. (Matt 26:45)

59.  Jesus accursed Judas for his betrays.

Jesus said, “…but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Matt 26:24)

But, it was Judas who made the salvation possible. If he had not been born, there would not have been any salvation for us.

Jesus said, “It had been good … if he had not been born.”

Why the contradiction?

60.  Who can kill God? God is Holy. Nobody can kill God. God is eternal and immortal, free from the suffering of death. He is always alive. He is out of the approach of the human hands. Sinners’ hands cannot reach Him or harm Him.

If Jesus died for three days and three nights, then he is no longer eternal and hence not co-equal to God the Father.

61.  Why Jesus (if he was a God) let the Jews and Romans disgrace Him and do all kind of insulting and persecution? What “The Most High” means and “God is Great.” God is not supposed to be humble and show not only humility, but actually disgrace at the hands of His enemies.

62.  Jesus never mentioned that the purpose of his coming was to give his life on the cross.

63.  Salvation through keeping the commandments of God:

 Jesus never mentioned that people’s salvation is in believing Jesus’ death on the cross. Rather he promised that the heaven’s eternal life is in following and obeying the commandments of God. As it is in the Book of Matthew:

And behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matt 19:16-17)

64.  If salvation through crucifixion, then the credit goes to Jews, Romans & Judas

They are the Jews who demanded from the Roman Governor Pilate to put him on the cross. And Judas betrayed Jesus and made his arrest possible; otherwise Jesus was hiding in the garden of Gethsemane. Chief Priests paid thirty pieces of silver to Judas for informing the authorities for his arrest.

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Jesus wasn’t born on December then why is Christmas celebrated on 25th?
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65.   A soldier saw Jesus walking, informs the chief priest

The watch” who saw (Jesus and his disciples meeting and going) all these things, told the Chief Priest in the city.

Now when they were going (Jesus and his disciples), behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. (Matt 28: 11)

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Watch now! Govt of India Documentary on Jesus in Kashmir!
It has tonnes of evidence put together in a very constructive way.

Day by day we are moving towards uncovering the mask of the false dogma of Christianity.

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Posted by on April 14, 2012. Filed under Christianity,CHRISTIANITY,Highlight,Religion and Science. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

489 Responses to 65 Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross

  1. Zia H. Shah

    April 13, 2012 at 11:45 pm

    A nice catalogue of arguments from the Bible. The fact of the matter is that St. Paul and later the Catholic Church assumed that Jesus died for their sins, put the cart before the horse and tried to look at every thing else through the assumptions of that distorted lens.

    At any rate, evidence in this information age, is over-whelming to see that Jesus had no plans to die on the cross, he was put on the cross only for a few hours and survived the ordeal. It was a case of resuscitation and not resurrection.

    The following articles link documentaries, a booklet by an Australian Judge and other evidence explaining further these 65 facts and some more:

    Jesus did not die on the cross
    If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence
    Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?
    Did Jesus rise in a physical body or a spiritual one?

    Last but not the least the story built up by the Church constantly contradicts itself. Initially, the stone of the tomb needed to be moved, for Jesus to come out, but later he walks through walls. The myth makers are never sure, if it is a physical resurrection or spiritual, as it is neither, it is a case of resuscitation.

  2. Zia H. Shah

    April 14, 2012 at 12:38 am

    An invitation to the Sunni Muslims
    If you are following this debate about Jesus’ resurrection, please consider that your understanding of the events puts one myth against the other, yours against the Christian. After all you are presenting transfer of identity between Judas and Jesus and heavenly travel of one, for which you have no historical or logical evidence.

    The presentation by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, on the other hand, not only makes logical sense, but is able to harmonize the Quranic and the Biblical case with rationality and historical information.

  3. Darrell Thatcher

    April 30, 2012 at 7:08 pm

    I hear you believing that, after the crucifixion, Jesus was still alive. And that anyone who is alive could never have been dead. I agree that that doesn’t make sense. It has never happened before or since. That doesn’t prove it didn’t happen. It does prove that Jesus was different from any other man.

    Rom 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

    Jesus didn’t raise Himself. He was truly dead. He needed His Father to raise Him from the dead. This verse also says that God can raise us from the dead in the same way. We only need to allow the Spirit of God to live in us.

    Every one of your points can be explained from the bible. I would like to share these with you if you’re interested.

    Darrell

  4. dr gulam mohd chinchwallker

    December 24, 2012 at 6:49 pm

    Brothers
    For both muslim and christain Jesus is a great figure . He is closer to God and teacher to mindkind.
    The secret how Jesus survive the crucifixion is secret of god itself Yes Jesus cannot be harmed by anyone , he is our protector from the fire of hell and guide who would lead us to paradise.Miracle is part of Jesus with the help of god and this very miracle save Jesus from crucifixation . so Jesus the brother of Mohammad

  5. Ghulam Sarwar

    December 24, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    There is every proof that Jesus a.s. did not die on the cross. This list of 65 points is good proof too. To add to these points I will suggest the following:
    1. It was the intention of the Jews to prove that Jesus was not a true prophet. The church wants to prove their point that they were right and they were successful. How bad!!

    2. Jesus prayed to his God to avoid the cup. That cup was death on the cross. He was not afraid of ordinary death. He did not like to die a cursed death on cross.
    The Jews were adamant to kill him on the cross. Shall we say that they succeeded. No. that is bad for Jesus.
    3. Jesus prayer has to be accepted.Otherwise it puts a bad omen on all the Christians. The coming of an angel to support him proves that his prayer was accepted. So he could never die on the cross. He was informed by Allah that his prayer was accepted and he would die a normal death (See Quran 3:56).

    4. The empty tomb is another proof that Jesus was removed from the tomb well before the guard was placed on the tomb. That was done to protect Jesus from being captured in any way again.
    The stone was placed on empty tomb after removing Jesus to a more safe and comfortable place, soon after every one had left the scene of crucifixion.

    5. Here I give a greater proof that Jesus could not die on the cross and he could not die in any other way too because God did not want him to die. That is mentioned under point number 11 in the list provided by Dr. Ghulam sahib. The gist is as follows:

    The wife of the governor Pilate had seen a dream that Jesus was a just man and that he should not die otherwise her family will suffer all the more.
    Dreams are arranged by angels. Angels follow the commands of God and carry out necessary orders and wills of God. It means that God did not want Jesus to die.
    if God did not want Jesus to die then he cannot be killed in any manner, on cross or otherwise. Please follow:
    When Jesus was born, king wanted to kill him. An angel appeared to Joseph, the father of Jesus, and told him to take Jesus to Egypt for his safety.
    God wanted Jesus to be taken to Egypt for his safety. Joseph took Jesus and his mother Mary to Egypt.
    Can any one believe that Jesus could be killed or die in Egypt by any means?? No. He cannot be killed there because God sent him to Egypt to save him from dying.
    It is the intention of God that Jesus be saved from death.
    Similarly, when angel came to wife of Pilate in dream and told her that Jesus should not be harmed, should not be killed, it was meant to save Jesus life.
    Even though he was condemned and put on the cross, he could not die. God arranged other ways to save him.

    6. It was a miracle for the sake of Jesus. The Christians are misled about it. Jesus was miraculously saved from death on the cross. He was soon resuscitated after being put in tomb.The herbs helped to reduce the pain and helped in quick healing.

    7. Jesus traveled 70 miles on foot to Galilee, met only his close friends, did not appear in public because he was a condemned man.
    The best answer was to travel towards east to get out of the jurisdiction of the Roman empire as quickly as possible.
    (Wassalam.)

  6. John Scelsi

    January 16, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    I reviewed this page and when I came to point number 27 I was caught off guard at the statement made, “Jesus never said He was dead and is now alive…” a verse is quoted there (Mark 8:29) which has nothing to do with the statement.

    Jesus did actually say just that in Revelation 1:18

    “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. ”

    The statements made on this page over-all are ignorant and capitalize on the weak that do not understand the Truth and what the Bible teaches. I am sorry for those that may be led astray, but more for those that are teaching others a misrepresentation of the Biblical Christian teaching, which is very simple and easy to understand with a little research.

  7. Amy DiMichele

    January 20, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    Your words are written with little intellligence.m. You think as a mere man thinks, unable to think as God thinks. God was Jesus who walked upon this earth to show us how to live and to let us know how much He loves us. Jesus totally empttied himself. You cannot accept this out of arrogance. That is something that you will need to learn. You are so far from the truth, so misguided, and lost. I pray for you.

  8. Paul Harland

    January 23, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    I enjoyed reading these 65 questions. The title is misleading because simply asking questions concerning what the documents say about the death of Jesus does not prove that he did not die !! People have been asking these questions for about 1980 years and have come to different answers. The Romans were expert killers and after the soldiers had pierced Jesus with a spear, Pilate said “Go, make the tomb secure as you know how” So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard. (Matthew 27:65,66) Next chapter we read that the Jewish leaders gave the Roman soldiers a large sum of money, telling them, “You are to say,’His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep’” So let us all keep reading and keep discussing for the next 2000 years. But Please keep your minds open to an amazing possibility that maybe one sinless man did rise victorious over death and went to God to prepare a place in heaven for his disciples !!

  9. Hanif Koya

    January 24, 2013 at 3:11 am

    Reason 62 is one of the most powerful one and I use it every day for no one can site actual words of Jesus saying, ” I have come to die on the cross and take away your sins” or words to that effect.

    Just on Martin Luther King’s Day celebration I shared this my friend Dr. Sanchez who also has concerns about Christian teaching as we traveled in BART TO San Francisco.

    I submitted to him that in my search in the Bible, I am looking for statement from Jesus as to his mission and from Mark, Mathew or John etc.

    THE TRUE MISSION

    I submitted that there cannot be competing and contradicting missions.

    The true mission in Jesus words is: ” I have not been sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel.”

    This was a very major mission which would seem unfulfilled if we accept the theory that Jesus rose to heaven after Crucifixion.

    Dr. Sanchez was amazed when I said that newer evidence shows that Jesus completed this mission after crucifixion for he traveled to Kashmir in search of the lost sheep of the “lost sheep of the House of Israel”

    Consequent to this we are scheduling a meeting for BIBLE STUDY WITH MUSLIMS.

  10. Hanif Koya

    January 24, 2013 at 3:14 am

    Forgot to express my gratitude to Imam Kausar sahib I consider a great authority on Bible for such an excellent analysis and reasoning. Mash Allah. Congratulations for an excellent write up.

  11. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    January 24, 2013 at 6:54 am

    Reply from the Author of the article:

    The reference Mark 8:29 is a typo mistake (It is corrected). It was not a reference but an objection that when Jews demanded from Jesus to come down of the cross, he should have come down and should have met them proving that “He infect is a son of God, so they should have believe him.” It is mentioned very clearly,

    “And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him with the scribes and elders said, he saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the king of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver now, if he will have him; for he said, I am the Son of God.” (Mat 27:40-43)

    “He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.” Luke 24:35)

    He should have come back in front of the Jews who demanded and challenged, going before them “Sir, here I am alive” which never happened.

    Jews wanted to see this happened as a sign of his truth, as they challenged him that he is saved from the accursed death of the cross.

    He never appeared before them. But a reference is being presented from Book of revelation which was written in 90AD 0or 96 AD when most of the Jews of that time must have died. Even it does not say that he appeared before the Jews. It is one person’s witness which is not clear who was he?

    On the other hand, we believe that no one can kill God, God is Holy and no hand of human can harm Him. He is forever, all Living.
    If God is killed and really, really died than who is going to bring him back to life. Was Jesus (God) really died or he was doing like a child when he doesn’t want to awake up, he shows to his mother that he is in a deep sleep, although he is not. Whether God (God forbid) was playing like this?

    If one God dies (God Forbid) all three should die because they cannot be separated from each other, “Three in one and one in three.”

    If God dies, the whole universe and every thing will destroy right a way. Every thing is living because of Him.
    The Holy Quran presents this fact saying that “God is Living, the self – Subsisting and All Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleeps. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. “(Holy Quran 2:256)

    Jews wanted to see him coming down of the cross as the challenged him, “Come down of the cross and we will believe in you. Not that a person in 90AD or 96AD after 60+ years of crucifixion gives witness that he was alive. Why he didn’t show himself to the Jews at the time of crucifixion or soon after? Book of revelation is written by St. John the divine, it is not clear who he was? The style of this book is very differently than the four Gospels and John I –John II and John III all other books in the New Testament. It shows that it must be a different person. Whether this Great fact or Witness had been presented by other authors of Bible including Mathew, Luke or John? Why they were silent about it.

    We the Ahmadie Muslim believe that infect Jesus was saved from the accursed death of the cross, he met his disciples before leaving for Galilee, onward going to Kashmir looking for the lost tribes of Israel.

    There were 65 points presented in the article. You should have replied to all but he has presented only one reference from book of Revelation which was written very late. And again it is just a claim by one of the followers of Jesus not a proof. It is the duty of Christian friends to reply and break all these facts which have been presented in the article that “Jesus did not die on the cross; as God always saves his beloved ones. Even Jesus himself predicted his safety when he predicted that his sign will be like a sign of Jonas. Jonas was saved from the belly of Whale, came out alive, never died therein.

  12. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    January 24, 2013 at 7:03 am

    Dear Paul Harland, as a Muslim, I have to believe in Jesus as a Messiah and an honorable prophet of God. So your prayer is answered, I do believe in Jesus. However, we would like an intelligent reply to the 65 points noted above so that we can learn from each other view. Calling someone unintelligence is just a claim as you claim that Jesus is alive, all we need is logical proofs of your claim. Faith is not the proof of a claim but a result of a reasoned conclusion which we can derive from an intelligent reply to this article. We are waiting!

  13. Ozzyg

    January 24, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Isn’t it interesting, that Jonah was wrapped in seaweeds, while Jesus wrapped in linen. What is also interesting, is that Jonah according to the bible fled God’s will ( a very major sin), Jonah prayed to be saved, and ending up surviving a situation that is almost impossible to survive, and appears to be worse that what Jesus went through. Yet, Jesus, whom God loved the most, whom accepted Everything that God willed, was forsaken from a situation that was not as difficult to survive as Jonah’s situation?

    Christians want us to believe that Jesus, died the death of a false prophet, that is unacceptable. I love God and his prophets to much to believe in such non-sense.

  14. Ozzyg

    January 24, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Jesus Travels to Galalie which was considered safe from the Jews that wanted to kill him. Jesus is in disguise which is why he is sometimes not recognized, and he eats and drinks because he is a normal human who requires food, and he bears wounds because it was the trauma he survived.

    Some christians would like to have people believe that Jesus wasn’t in disguise but had used magic on the eyes of the disciples, had some selective resurection that missed the very wounds that supposedly killed him (make sense of that) and only ate so the disciples would feel comfortable, the food afterwords disintergrated into air.

    Obviously, the rational answer is clear-cut.

    Some have no problem believing that Jesus survives(in the same body) space (which would kill a normal person in 30 sec or less), survives 2000 years of age, and will survive the second coming conflict (a war, which would necessarily have nuclear weapons since thats what nations use today to conduct such a war), yet when it comes to the crusifixion, they change their mindset, the incredible body of Jesus now dies sooner then most.

    Secondly, when the Devil went to tempt Jesus, to jump off a temple that would have killed him for sure, he tells the devil to not test God because Jesus Trusts him to save him from such a guranteed death. Yet, when it comes to the crusifixion, they change their mindset, Jesus had trust that God would protect him from falling down into a guranteed quick death, yet when it comes to the crusifixion (not guranteed death), God compromises the trust he had?
    There is a major incoherence of the christian position regarding the durability of Jesus’s body and the trust he had with God, among several other things that are all comprimised in the crusifixion. Also, the bible says that Jesus’s body didn’t decay when he was “killed”, yet we know that brain cells decay, die and rot immediately after death, so to maintain such a position one would have to belive that Jesus’s body was in supernatural statis when he was “dead”.

    Or maybe we could avoid all the incoherence and absurdities, and choose the rational option looking straight at us.

  15. Ozzyg

    January 24, 2013 at 3:55 pm

    Even today, after docters do very deep medical examinations, they conclude that someone is dead, but in a few days sometimes they are found alive. Our conception of death has improved from ancient days, someone back then could have been deeply unconcious, yet people would still refer to them as dead, and if someone walked out of a tomb days later, people would also use the language of “raised from the dead”, our philosophy and conception of what “death” really is had changed historically. There are incredible stories of survival throughout history, if i change the names, places, and time frame of the biblical crusifixion story, most people would look at the situation completely differently, and just like another amazing survival story that has occured throughout history, yet when we change the situation back into biblical terms, people’s perception immediately morphs.

    Seriously, if we see someone walk around 36 hours after they were thought to be dead, in a disguise, eating and drinking, heading to somewhere safe, everyone would declare “oh, i guess he wasn’t really dead”. It is simple. It is logical.

  16. Abraham bin Haque

    January 25, 2013 at 4:18 am

    The first of the 65 questions is probably the most important question of all. If we can understand why Jesus had to die, it will be easier for us to believe that He did so. There are two main reasons for his death on the cross:

    A) To restore God’s honour

    The Old Testament, known as the Torah by Muslims, tells the wonderful story of how God created Adam and Eve and later the Israelites to be his people. We learn how he loved them like a father loves his children. Time and time again, however, we read with great sadness how his chosen ones break his commandments, how they become guilty of lawlessness. Even more disturbing is the fact that their rebellion is only a fruit of a conscious rejection of the Almighty God. His own people spit in his face and bring shame upon him before the very nations they were supposed to be witnessing of his honour and glory. To make matters even worse, they were not ashamed of themselves:

    ‘Therefore the showers have been withheld, and no spring rains have fallen. Yet you have the brazen look of a prostitute; you refuse to blush with shame. Have you not just called to me (God): ‘My Father, my friend from my youth, will you always be angry? Will your wrath continue for ever?’ This is how you talk, but you do all the evil you can.’ (Jeremiah 3:3-5)

    The people of old did as they pleased because they had lost a sense of shame. While their mechanical, outward ritual acts may still have been in place they were not concerned about God’s honour at all. Repentance, the turning round from one’s evil ways, was later expressed in terms of recognition of shame and disgrace. (Jer. 31:19) Likewise, our disloyalty to God, our resistance against his work among us is known and is exceedingly shameful. We too deserve to be punished ever so severely. Since God is pure, completely removed from all evil, man’s sin has cut off, effectively killed, the relationship between the two. The warning given to Adam and Eve became a frightening reality:

    And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’ (Gen 2:16-17)

    ‘For the wages of sin is death,…’(Rom 6:23)

    Only through death God’s honour will be restored. Consequently God introduced an elaborate sacrificial system to the Israelites through Moses. Shame could be removed by getting forgiveness for sins, but only if an animal would die in their place.

    ‘…without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.’ (Heb 9:22)

    This all important truth is also reflected in ‘Qisas’ the Islamic law of retaliation. (Surah 2, Al Baqarah, verses 178-179) It consists in doing to the person who has committed a crime the very same thing they have done. The life of someone who is wilfully killed demands the murderer’s life in retaliation. However, the next of kin can accept a financial compensation instead. According to Surah 5, Al Maida, verse 45, retaliation for inflicted wounds is also necessary. A nose for a nose and so on. If a member of the body which is to be cut off in revenge is defective, a compensation will be accepted.

    From God’s perfect perspective animal and all other sacrifices are defective. They can not take away sins but were only serving as a cover and a shadow of Jesus, the Messiah, the perfect sacrifice to come (Heb 10:1-18). He, being without sin, by taking our shame upon himself through his death on the cross, restored the honour of God in a most profound and just way:

    ‘Moreover, the Father judges no-one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father, who sent him. I (Jesus) tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.’ (John 5:22-24)

    ‘Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death – even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.’ (Phil 2:5-11)

    God raised Jesus from the dead confirming his authority, loyalty blessedness and blamelessness. Those who deny the cross refuse to accept God’s generosity, his blessing. They dishonour the giver.

    B) To meet the demands of God’s justice and love

    The Bible (Leviticus 11:45) and the Quran (Surah 59, Al Hashr, verse 23) tell us that God is holy. That means He is separated from anything that is unclean, bad, and hypocritical, in other words from anything that is sin. Both, the Bible (Isaiah 59:1-2) and the Quran (Surah 2, Al Baqarah, verses 35-36) tell us that sin separates man from God. Therefore, sin is not just a minor mistake, but absolutely intolerable in the sight of God! Another reason why sin has to be treated seriously, is because God is just (Deuteronomy 32:4, Surah 95, Al Tin, verse 8). He punishes every wrong doer and awards the one who does right. However, God will not judge according to our good or bad works alone (Romans 3:23-24, Surah 35, Fatir, verse 45). He loves us so much (John 3:16) that in His mercy he chooses to forgive our sins. But if He would forgive our sins without punishment, then in His mercy He would become unjust!

    That is why God revealed Himself in Jesus and died on the cross for our sins. In Jesus God met the requirements of His justice and of His love! Jesus died on the cross on our behalf, for our sin. In Deuteronomy 21:23 anyone who hangs on a tree is described as being sinful and under God’s curse. Galatians 3:13 explains that Jesus, himself without sin, became a curse for us because he took our sin on himself. After paying the penalty for sin through His death, Jesus rose again. Consequently the death and resurrection of Jesus are of the utmost importance for Christians! The following illustration will help to better understand this profound matter:

    There was once a king who possessed a huge kingdom over which he also ruled as a just judge. He wrote down laws which had to be kept by everyone so that order and justice would be maintained. One day his very own son, whom he loved so dearly, committed a terrible crime. The law made it very clear that a perpetrator, such as his child had become would have to face a fine of £ 100,000,000,000. The king’s son was not able to pay that large amount of money. However, the just judge could not change the law simply because the sinner was his own son, otherwise he would not have been impartial anymore. He decided that his child too was guilty, but when he pronounced the judgement, out of love, he offered to pay the fine on behalf of his son. In that way he could meet the demands of his justice but also of his love for the disobedient child. The son sorrowfully repented of his crime and humbly accepted his father’s offer. This incident changed him so completely that he decided to love and serve his father forever. By doing this he could certainly never pay back the £100,000,000,000. No, he changed his way of life to express his great thankfulness towards his just and loving father.

    The king in the illustration symbolises God, the kingdom is the world. The laws are the Holy Scriptures, the king’s son is all mankind and the terrible crime committed by him is sin. The sum of £100,000,000,000 stands for the punishment of sin, which is a invincible separation from the Holy God. The king who took his son’s place and paid the fine on behalf of him illustrates what God has done for all mankind in Jesus. He paid the punishment for sin by dying on our behalf at the cross. Finally, the complete change that took place in the life of the son is a picture of the new life of a Christian. By faith, through a prayer of forgiveness he accepts what Jesus Christ had done for him. He believes that Jesus took upon him the punishment for men’s sin. Only out of thankfulness he starts to love and serve God, not because he thinks he could ever earn a place in heaven by doing good. Whatever the newly born Christian now does will be motivated by love for the One who saved him from a terrible punishment.

    Some Muslims might object to the illustration above by saying that God’s attributes of Justice and Mercy can not be understood. They are completely different from our human concept. It is true that God’s attributes are different from ours, but only in regard to their perfection rather than their definition. If the meaning of God’s characteristics were so completely different from our understanding then his ninety-nine names, which allegedly describe them, would be unnecessary! Besides that, God Himself used illustrations in the Quran: In Surah 13, Ar-Ra’d, verses 16-17 we read that ‘…Thus doth Allah set forth parables.’ (See also Surah 16, Al Nahl, verses 75-76)

    A Muslim enquirer recently asked: ‘The Bible states that God sacrificed his Son, but yet we also read that Jesus was resurrected back to life and is sitting on the right hand of God. When you sacrifice something, you do not take it back 3 days latter, is this not a contradiction?’

    The reason why Jesus the perfect sacrifice was raised to live again on the third day is found in the word ‘perfect.’ Animal sacrifices were imperfect, they just pointed to the perfect one. That is the reason why they had to be offered again and again. That is also the reason why they were not raised to life again. However, Christ being the perfect, sinless sacrifice only had to die once. Since he paid the punishment for sin, namely death by his own death, the latter no longer became a reality! That is precisely why God raised Jesus to live again. This profound truth is expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:54-57:

    ‘When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’ ‘Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?’ The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.’

    Jesus defeats the death that came as a result of sin! He as the firstfruit has been raised to life therefore. Those who believe in his perfect sacrifice will follow his example once they die physically. The following verses, again quoted from 1 Corinthians 15 confirm this good news:

    ‘But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.’ (Verses 20-22)

    Here are some more verses that speak about the same truth:

    ‘Jesus was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.’ (Romans 4:25)

    ‘For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Romans 6:9-16)

    Wow! What a message! That Christ was raised to life again after he died sacrificially for us is not a contradiction. Since death for him was no more, there is nothing that could be a contradiction to his being raised to life!

    The destiny for us who are living in the time of the New Testament is dependent on our relationship to Jesus. The New Testament makes it clear that salvation is by faith through Christ alone:

    ‘That in the time to come he might make clear the full wealth of his grace in his mercy to us in Christ Jesus: Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God: Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself. For by his act we were given existence in Christ Jesus to do those good works which God before made ready for us so that we might do them.’ (Ephesians 2:7-10)

    ‘Being conscious that a man does not get righteousness by the works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we had faith in Christ Jesus, so that we might get righteousness (right standing before God) by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law will no flesh get righteousness.’ (Galatians 2:16)

    Salvation by faith in Jesus is believing with the intellect that the Bible is right about our sinful condition, about who Jesus is and about what he did on the cross for us. Passages that speak about judgement according to works have to be read in the light of what true faith means. This is confirmed when their immediate context is considered. (e.g. Joh 5:28-29, compare with verses 23-24, Mat 16:27 with verses 21-26, 25:31-46 with 23:37-39, Jam 2:14-26). As the German reformer Martin Luther used to say ‘the faith that saves is never alone.’ True faith in Christ shows itself in four ways:

    1. Out of thankfulness followers of Jesus do what he tells them: To love God and man. This is the essence and test of true obedience. They desire to follow the moral law set out in the Old Testament and summarized in what is known as ‘the 10 commandments.’ (Exo 20:1-17)

    2. Genuine faith in Jesus produces a desire to become more like him, to do what is right and just.

    3. Saving faith creates the awareness that this new obedience can only come through faith in Christ. It does not come from focusing on the law, the desperate attempt to meet its demands. Instead it comes from continually fixing one’s eyes on Jesus and his work, by remaining connected to him through being in his presence with one’s thoughts.

    4. Lastly, Biblical faith generates a constant abiding in and reliance on Jesus by faith. In this way only the Holy Spirit of God supplies the power for a changed life and lasting fruit. (Rom 8:13, Joh 15:5)

    Crux probat omnia! The cross tests everything! What do you think?

  17. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    January 25, 2013 at 5:53 am

    It is very interesting to note that many on these comments continue to claim Jesus died on the cross for their sin without even trying to refute a single reason mentioned in this article that he did not die on the cross. We respect their opinion and their faith as we believe that there is no compulsion in religion. However, in order for us to accept a claim we need proof and we need reason.

    Jesus prayed the night before crucifixion to be saved from this impending trial and he never intended to die. He always claimed that he came for the lost sheep’s of the house of Israel (i.e. Jews) and constantly refused to preach to the gentiles even said not to caste pearl before the swine! Unless you are a Jew, Jesus’ message is not for you. It is Paul who started to preach to the gentiles without any authorization from Jesus. So in short, one can create an image of Jesus and worship it as s/he pleases in fact Hinduism is full of such idol worship of human “gods” or s/he investigate the real Jesus and his mission so that s/he can be guided to the straight path to the one and only TRUE and ALMIGHTY GOD!

    “There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.” Holy Quran 2:257

  18. Paul Harland

    January 25, 2013 at 6:19 am

    I am very grateful to Abraham bin Haque for his good answer to question number one. I continue to be interested by these 65 questions and many of them have been answered on the website by Prof. Josh McDowell – Evidence for the Resurrection. Hanif Koya has written about question no. 62. Jesus never mentioned that the purpose of his coming was to give his life on the cross.

    Actually Jesus did mention it several times in different ways because his disciples could not understand. (Mark 8:31-32) He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. (Mark 9:31-32) Jesus said to his disciples,”The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him and after three days he will rise again.” (Mark 10:32) Again he took the twelve disciples aside and told them what would happen to him. “We are going to Jerusalem,” he said,”and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

    The disciple John tells us that Jesus told them the reason that he had to die – “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
    I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” (John 10:10-11)

    Mark also quotes Jesus as saying, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

    In summary St. Paul writes – But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners Ghrist died for us. (Romans 5:8)

  19. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    January 25, 2013 at 8:42 am

    and… while we are still sinners, God the Creator could have said: “I forgive you” and there would have been no need of this ‘drama’ of ‘sacrificing his only son’… (just a thought).

  20. Ozzyg

    January 25, 2013 at 9:39 am

    Was there a certain quantity of suffering or blood being shed for sins to be forgiven? Would a few blood cells suffice? How does that mechanism forgive sin? It Is absurd. Some people are obsessed with this notion of atonement, they think it requires Jesus to die the death of a false prophet, but it’s interesting, since judas will suffer eternally, yet he was supposedly required for atonement to take place, yet he would not be atoned. Paul has had his influence on the bible. If I see someone in front of a bus that I love, I don’t throw my son whom i love more into the way, I go myself. Similarly, if God loved his son more then the world he would have gone himself. Sins are immaterial, they are in the mind of God, he is not dependent on anything, if he wishes to not think of them again, as well as forgive them, then they stop existing. God d”makes the rules, God gave me every photon in my body, and free will that I can even sun and be ungrateful. I have done nothing to deserve my existence, yet will i call God unjust because I did nothing to deserve it? Of course not.

  21. Paul Harland

    January 26, 2013 at 7:47 am

    I am really grateful go Ossyg for giving these comments and questions about sacrifice. Really we should not blame St. Paul for his influence, because the system of animal sacrifice was started by the earliest prophets more than 5,000 years before Paul was born. We can read in the Torah revealed to Musa that Adam and his sons, Noah, Ibrahim, Ishmael, Isaac, Yacob, Yusuf, Musa and Haroon (peace be on them all,) offered sacrifices of cows, goats and sheep. They performed sacrifice for 3 reasons – to give thanksgiving to Allah, to receive His blessing and also for forgiveness for sins committed.

    After Allah revealed the 10 special commandments to Musa, Allah also appointed Musa’s brother Haroon as special Imam to perform sacrifice for particular sins. He also performed sacrifices at the special feast of Passover in thanksgiving to Allah for deliverance from slavery in Egypt, and at the feast of Atonement to continue the covenant of forgiveness of sin and peace with Allah for the future. During the times of King Daud and King Sulaiman hundreds of cows, sheep and goats were sacrificed at Baitul Mokudus in Jerusalem. The believers who sacrifice animals on Hajj or in their homes at Korbani Eid also believe their sacrifices give thanks to Allah, help to receive His blessing and help with forgiveness of sin.

    The very amazing revelation from Allah came to the Prophet Isaiah concerning the Messiah 750 years before Jesus was born. Writing about the coming Messiah he wrote:- “See my servant will act wisely, he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. … He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised and we esteemed him not…. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that bought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed. … He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. …. He was oppressed and afflicted yet he did not open his mouth, he was led like a lamb to the slaughter. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.” (The full quotation can be read in Isaiah 52:13 to 53:12 ) Many of the Jews were expecting a political Messiah but the Prophet Iyahia understood Isaiah’s words, and he introduced Jesus to all the people by saying, “Behold, the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.”

    Allah is our creator and he is loving and merciful, but He is also the holy judge on judgment day. John one of the closest disciples of Jesus the Messiah wrote:- “My little children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin we have an advocate with the Father – Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”

  22. Ozzyg

    January 26, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    I find it humourous that the “Lamb of God” will be commiting the worst conflict of all time in his second coming, so much for a “humble” and “meek” little lamb. You didn’t at all actually interact with anything I said, but that is fine.

    Blood did’t always have to be shed for sacrifice-”bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering” and obviously flour does not bleed.

    Sacrifices in and of them selves do not atone for sins. The bible says “The sacrifice of a wickend person a an abomination to the Lord” meaning just buring fat does nothing, it requres prayer, repentence and returning to God, God wants people to change. The sacrifice isnt a magic wand that wipes away sins, it is an external symbol of internal change. The bible states “Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!” (Psalms 141:2), Praying could be a sacrifice.

    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land (2 chronicles 7:14). Hmm don’t see any blood sacrifice, just plain old repentence and love for God.

    And look at this “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord;
    I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
    and the fat of well-fed beasts;
    I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
    or of lambs, or of goats.
    When you come to appear before me,
    who has required of you
    this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense [bringing offerings] is an abomination to me.” Don’t think this means that sacrifices played no role, they did when offered in the right way, that being as an expression of a changed person. But a sacrifice in and of it’self means nothing.

    “I—yes, I alone—will blot out your sins for my own sake and will never think of them again.” (Isaiah 43:25)
    Since sins are in the mind of God, if he chooses never to think of them again, they stop existing, and if one repeats and changes and loves God he will do so.

    Regarding Isiah 53, the most oft quoted christian proof text. Even Christians scholars attest to it being about the messiah, “the servant appears to be exiled isreal” (harper collins study bible), “The lord speaks promising the servant Isreal” (The new interpreters study bible). Secondly, Isiah 53 has the agent seeing his seed, a term for having children, christians believe he had no children and it states he will prolounge his days, when you believed he died at age 33.

    Using those arabic words and Muslim terminology was cute, to bad there was no logic to go along with it. The epistle you quote are the end of your segment was from an epistle written around 100AD, and is actually anonymous, and scholars have a wide variety of opinions regarding the authors of the writings of the new testament.

  23. Paul Harland

    January 28, 2013 at 8:44 pm

    It is wonderful when anyone discovers some new aspect in the life of Jesus the Messaiah! It is true that the Prophet Iyahya was maybe the first person to say, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” It was John the fisherman whom most Greek scholars accept as the author of one Gospel, three Epistles and the book of Revelation who also calls Jesus “Lion of the tribe of Judah” – (Revelation 5:5)

    At the beginning of the book of Matthew, Jesus teachers the 9 famous Beatitudes which start “Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted.
    Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:3-12)

    But at the end of Matthew in chapter 23 we can read 7 Woes of criticism.
    “Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites ! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, not will you let those enter who are trying to enter.
    Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites ! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” There is a similar sermon in Luke 6:20 – 26

    It is not surprising that the common people really came in thousands to hear His sermons while the leaders of the Jews and Romans plotted together to kill Him.

    It is true that when Jesus the Messiah came the first time, he was born as a weak baby and lived a life of love and service – saving people from sickness and death without killing anyone and being forgiving to those who persecuted him.
    We do read however, that His second coming near the judgement day he will come with awesome power. St John said,
    “Look, he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be Amen.” (Revelation 1:7)

  24. Paul Harland

    February 3, 2013 at 5:34 am

    I am grateful to Imam I H Hauser for mentioning statement no 20, because it shows some of the miracles that took place at the time Jesus the Messiah died. There may have been about 1000 witnesses watching on the hill outside Jerusalem, but there were also many in the city who would have seen these miracles. He wrote:-

    20. Neither Jews nor Christians are sure about Jesus’ death on the cross. There was a very strong earthquake, a storm and an eclipse of sun just after the crucifixion of Jesus, that made all Jews and Romans run away from the sight. That is why; neither Jews nor the Christians are sure about the death of Jesus on the cross but a gesture.

    Matthew the Jewish tax collector was one of the witnesses and he wrote:- “ From the sixth hour to the ninth hour there was darkness. (This means that from 12 noon to 3.00 p.m. Jesus was hanging on the cross and there was darkness but he does not mention that it was a storm or an eclipse.) And when Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of may holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus, resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.” (Matthew 27:50-53) After Jesus cried out and stopped breathing there seems to have been about three hours because Matthew also says, “As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph…. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body and Pilate ordered the it be given to him. “ (Matthew 27:57-58)

    That Friday evening, the Jews, the Romans and the Christians all agreed on one fact that Jesus of Nazareth was completely dead !! Jews and Romans thought that a trouble maker had been killed forever so there would be peace. Followers of Jesus Christ were overcome by grief because they thought their spiritual leader and prophet had come to the end of his life. All were convinced that his dead body was put in a hollow tomb with a big stone sealed and well guarded.

    Sunday morning was the big surprise for everyone !! The Roman soldiers on guard ran for their lives because of the earthquake at the tomb. The Jews were angry and paid money to the guards so that they would tell lies. The followers of Jesus the Messiah had their lives changed completely. They were no longer a few frightened men, but became bold and confident witnesses of the facts they had seen and they themselves were not afraid to die for the truth. Although most of them were Jews and used to worship on Saturday, they made a historic change and they and all Christians since that time worship on a Sunday because they saw Jesus the Messiah rise from the dead on a Sunday.

  25. Amtul Q Farhat

    February 20, 2013 at 12:44 pm

    Though the reasons are interesting, the disscussion above is far more intresting!

  26. Tarkan

    February 25, 2013 at 2:32 am

    One remark that is often misinterpreted by muslims.
    I often heard the argument that if god is so powerful why did he not just help is son and destroy the whole earth. Why should he intervene? He knows everything in advance so why should he corrupt his own plans. Moreover God cannot die so there is no reason for god to help Jesus. Moreover the end reflects just Jesus’ life in general. He was the christian martyr who let not others die for his faith, but instead died himself for his faith. Big difference.

  27. Ataul Wahid

    February 25, 2013 at 9:11 am

    Christianity is the invention of Paul, and was not followed by Jesus or his companions.

    Let us look at Paul’s agenda and then determine from the teachings of the OT and Jesus himself whether Paul had the authority to replace the covenant made between God Abraham and between God and Moses.

    In 1881 Nietzche argued in The Dawn that the apostle Paul was really the first Christian; and that without him “There would be no Christianity; we should scarcely have heard of a small Jewish sect whose master died on the cross.” A great many people have come to accept this view, and at least the first sentence of Nietzshe’s argument would seem to be borne out by The Acts of the Apostles, the book that in the New Testament follows upon the four Gospels:

    “That the ship of Christianity threw overboard a good deal of its Jewish ballast, that it went, and was able to go, among the pagans—that was due to this one man, a very tortured man, very pitiful, very unpleasant, unpleasant even to himself. He suffered from a fixed idea—or more precisely, from a fixed, ever-present, never resting question: What about the Jewish law? In his youth he had himself wanted to satisfy it, with a ravenous hunger for this highest distinction which the Jews could conceive—this people who were propelled higher than any other people by the imagination of the ethically sublime, and who alone succeeded ion creating a holy god together with the idea of sin as a transgression against this holiness. Paul became the fanatical defender of this god and his law and guardian of his honour; at the same time, in the struggle against the transgressors and doubters, lying in wait for them, he became increasingly harsh and evilly disposed to them, and inclined towards the most extreme punishments. And now he had found that—hotheaded, sensual, melancholy, malignant in his hatred as he was—he was himself unable to fulfill the law; indeed, and this seemed strangest to him, his extravagant lust to domineer provoked him continually to transgress the saw, and he had to yield to this thorn.
    Is it really his carnal nature that makes him transgress again and again? And not rather, as he himself suspected later, behind it the law itself, which must constantly prove it unfulfillable and which lures him to transgression with irresistible charm? But at the time he did not yet have this way out….
    Luther may have had similar feelings when, in his monastery, he wanted to become the perfect man of the spiritual ideal; and just as Luther one day began to hate the spiritual ideal and the Pope and the saints and the whole clerisy with a true deadly hatred—all the more the less he could own it to himself—so it was with Paul. The law was the cross to which he felt himself nailed: how he hated it; how he resented it; how he searched for some means to annihilate it—not to fulfill it any more himself;
    And finally the saving thought struck him, together with a vision—it could scarcely have happened otherwise to this epileptic….Paul heard the works: “Why do you persecute me?” the essential occurrence, however, was this: his head had suddenly seen a light: “it is unreasonable, he had said to himself, to persecute this Jesus! Here after all is the way our; here is the perfect revenge; here and nowhere else I have and hold the annihilator of the law?”

    Acts gives a frightful picture of Paul before his conversion.

    “He went to the High Priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or woman, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he journeyed and approached Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And he said: Who are you, Lord? I am Jesus whom you are persecuting…..Acts 9:1-5

    That was Saul’s conversion, after which “for three days he was without sight. Acts 9:9
    Many scholars suppose, as Nietzsche did, that he was an epileptic. He changed his name to Paul and became the most zealous missionary of the budding church. As an Apostle to the Gentiles he had no equal.. And when he saw his missionary work endangered by the disciples’ insistence on the preservation of the Jewish law, he argued insistently for its relaxation. Paul is the hero of Acts, but for the doctrine he preached we must turn to the Epistles.
    Four of Paul’s letters, all four of unquestionable authenticity, convey his teachings: the Epistle to the Romans and the rather similar Epistle to the Galatians, as well as the two letters to the Corinthians. Paul had not heard Jesus preach: and if his preaching had been ethical in part, Paul did not consider that to be of any crucial importance. As he said in his first Epistle to the Corinthians, “When I came to you, brethren…..I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” 2:1 And “We preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, to the Greeks a folly” 1:23
    Paul is suggesting that to those who are not followers of Jesus, his crucifixion seems to prove that he had no special powers or authority; but in fact “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,” the allusion being to Isaiah 53.
    The crucified Messiah took upon himself the punishment for our sins and thus became our saviour. What is required of us is faith that he died for us. The antinomy of law and faith is central in Paul. Since the Messiah or Christ died for our sins, we need no longer satisfy the law: what is required for salvation is faith in Christ.

    The heart of Paul’s message is a verse in one of the minor prophets of the Hebrew Bible, Habakkuk, whose brief book comprises only three short chapters. In the original language and context, the meaning of verse four of chapter two is none too clear, but Paul’s version of it is not startling: “the just man shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17 and Galatians 3:11.) In Hebrew emanah means firmness, truthfulness, reliability, faithfulness; not the belief that anything was the case or had happened. But among the Jew’s of Paul’s time far bolder exegeses were not uncommon; and this last half of a verse in a very minor prophet became for Paul the epitome of his kerygma. Of course, Habakkuk was not suggesting any opposition between law and faith, between doing and believing, but Paul evidently had not derived his doctrine from Habbkkuk, he verily found in him a convenient proof text.
    While Jesus, according to the gospels, had taught as one having authority and had only very occasionally designed to argue and prove his point by citing scripture—much more often he had pointed to his miracles as proof that he had authority—Paul argues constantly. One would think that his arguments must strike almost any reader as poor; a reader not versed in rabbinical literature as simply outlandish, and readers versed in it as obviously open to a host of counter arguments. But in the Christian churches Paul was quickly canonized, and his arguments were received uncritically. For Luther, Paul—and especially his use of the half verse from Habakkuk—became the cornerstone of the Reformation, and in Protestant churches Paul’s arguments have been read from the pulpit so frequently that generations of Protestants would no more think of questioning them than they would question their most cherished convictions.
    From Deuteronomy 27:26 Paul quotes; :Cursed be whoever does not uphold the words of this Torah to do them.” This is the last of an imposing series of twelve curses that begins “Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molted image, an abomination to the Lord, a work made by a craftsman’s hands, and puts it up in secret.” Here are the other curses: “Cursed be whoever dishonours his father or his mother.” “Cursed be whoever removes his neighbors landmarks.” “Cursed whoever leads the blind astray on their path.” “Cursed he whoever violates the rights of the stranger, the orphan, and the widow.” The next four curses are pronounced on anyone who has sexual intercourse with his father’s wife, with his sister or half sister, with his mother in law, or with any beast. Then, “Cursed be whoever slays his neighbor in secret.” And, “Cursed be whoever takes a bribe to slay an innocent human being.”
    Moses ordained, according to this passage in Deuteronomy that on the day when the children of Israel should cross the Jordan river into the promised land, these curses as well as a series of blessings should be pronounced most solemnly. After every curse, the refrain is repeated: “An all the people shall say: Amen.” And immediately after the last curse, which Paul quotes the blessing begin.
    Paul, however, quotes this verse completely out of context in order to make his point;

    Galatians 3 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    This short quotation may give at least some idea of Paul’s mode of argument. It may also serve to call attention to the central flaw of his argument. He postulates that before the Crucifixion, the only way to be saved was to abide by all things written in the book of the law; he assumes further that this condition was impossible to fulfill and that therefore one was condemned to live under the curse of the law. Thus it seems that prior to the Crucifixion no Jew could be saved, because no Jew, could satisfy all the laws. We were all sinners, but now Christ has died for our sins, and if we believe this we are saved.
    Paul’s assumptions, however, are flagrantly at odds with the spirit of both the Hebrew Bible and the Pharisees. The whole notion of a judgment in which some are saved while the rest of mankind is damned is alien to Moses, and the notion that everyone who transgresses any commandment whatsoever, no matter how small, is damned, is in one word, Pauline. In the Hebrew Bible and among the rabbis there never seems to have been the slightest doubt that God could at any time feely forgive those who repented. The Book of Jonah taught emphatically that this forgiveness extended to Gentiles as well as Jews, that no conversion was required, and that even the most outrageous evil-doers, not merely those guilty of some small transgression—were in fact forgiven by God as soon as they truly repented. But Paul simply could not acknowledge this without conceding that in the pregnant words he used to rule out alternatives—“then Christ died in vain” Acts 2:21
    Paul’s God is anything but a paradigm of love and forgiveness. He first gave the Jews a law they could not possible keep and damned all who failed to keep every least commandment. He apparently also damned all Gentiles, even though they were not bound by the law. Then, after well over a thousand years had passed since the giving of the law, God decided to save a few human beings, but saw no way of achieving this without a godman sacrifice. Since such a sacrifice was necessary, Paul does not tell us why it should have been—God decided that Jesus Christ should be tormented and crucified and cursed after instituting certain sacraments; and henceforth those would be saved who believed all this and ate and drank what they themselves believed to be the flesh and blood of Christ.
    It may seem as if a more unlikely story would have been hard to invent. Paul claims to have been raised a Pharisee; his epistles abound in quotations from the Septuagint; and some recent studies have demonstrated his heavy debts to rabbinical Judaism. But in context of the Hebrew Bible alone, or of normative Judaism, his major arguments simply do not make sense. One has to recall the syncretism of the age in which he lived and his eagerness to convert Gentiles.

    Paul suggests the belief that Christian faith supersedes moral laws, that the believer will be saved because he has faith, even if his conduct is immoral. Those whom Paul had converted evidently understood him to be saying that, but confronted with their conduct, Paul, with his Jewish upbringing , was deeply shocked. In brief, the theme he stressed henceforth was that we are redeemed by faith, but that the person who has faith will not be immoral. Of course, he will not keep all the laws, but neither will he fornicate and murder.
    It seems evident that this small Jewish sect had limited success amongst the Jews and it is obvious that it could never have become the State religion of the Roman Empire without first divorcing itself from it’s Jewish roots. Thus it became much easier to be a Christian than it had been to follow the tenant of Judaism. Paul and John did this by stressing belief and sacraments. And it became much easier to be a Christian when the basic beliefs already existed in the local pagan religions.
    The entire drama of Christianity is taken form the pagan mystery religions of Egypt, Rome and Greece. Here are similarities between the Egyptian god Horus and Jesus.
    1. Sirius, the morning star of Egypt, heralded the birth of Horus.
    2. Horus was baptized in the River Eridanus by a god figure name Anup, who was later decapitated.
    3. Horus has no history between the ages of twelve and thirty.
    4. Horus walked on water, cast out demons and healed the sick.
    5. Horus was transfigured on a mountain.
    6. Horus delivered a Sermon on the Mount to his followrs.
    7. Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb and resurrected. His personal epithet was Iusa, the ever becoming son of Ptah, or the Father.
    8. Horus was the good Sheppard, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, and the fisher.
    9. Horus was the Way, the Truth and the Life.
    10. Horus was called the Lord by name.
    11. Horus was to reign for one thousand years.
    12. Horus came to seed and to save what was lost.
    13. On his resurrection Horus shouts. “The goddesses and the women proclaim me when they see me on the horizon of resurrection.
    Paul and his followers, to attract the Greek, Roman and Egyptian pagans, simply took the story of Horus, removed his name, and replaced it with Jesus. In fact, the name of Jesus with the J pronounced as an H, is almost identical to Horus. This is why Jesus warned his disciples to confine their preaching to the Israelites and not to go to the Gentiles. He knew they would take his message corrupt it to the point where it would become unrecognizable.
    Nietzsche presented a brilliant argument against Christianity and vicarious atonement, yet it pales in comparison to the writing of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He writes.
    “Herein is a rebuttal of the Christian doctrine. They believe that everyone from Adam down to the end of the world is tainted with sin irrespective of whether they were given the Book from God or not, and whether they are blessed with reason or not. They claim that God, the Supreme, shall not forgive anyone unless he believes in the Messiah and believe that the door of salvation is shut upon others and that forgiveness cannot be earned through good deeds; and that God being just, His justice requires that the sinner and the criminal should be punished and that mankind could not be redeemed through good deeds, God sent His pure son so that he may carry the load of mankind’s sins on his shoulders and be crucified and thus relieve the sinners of their burden. Accordingly the son came and was slain and those who believed in him were saved and entered the gardens of salvation happy and rejoicing. This is their belief, but he who tests it with reason and subjects it to investigation, will find it a chain of absurdities. If you were to wonder at it you would be justified; for there is certainly nothing more surprising than their claims. They do not realize that justice is much more important and much more obligatory than mercy and to let off the guilty and punish the innocent is to destroy both justice and mercy; and no one would be guilty of that save one who is utterly demented.
    Again, both promise of reward for good deeds and warning of punishment for transgression are prerequisites of any punitive action. How can then the infliction of punishment on anyone be justified before the promulgation and consolidation of the canons of law and how can the punishment of the former or latter generations be justified for commission of an act that had not been preceded by a warning that its commission would entail a penalty and with no one being informed of it? The truth of the matter is that no concept of justice can be established except after the revelation of the Book of God and His promise and His warning and His commandments and the limits set by Him and His directives. Attributing a strict concept of justice to God, the Supreme, is utterly erroneous and without a true basis, for, justice is inconceivable until after the establishment of rights and their binding character.
    But those who disobeys his Lord and His commandments and disregards His injunctions and turns away will certainly be punished. Therefore, when requital is incidental to promise and prohibition and not to justice as a Divine obligation of God, the towering structure erected by the Christians in their fancies collapses utterly. Commentary on the Holy Quran Surah Fatiha pgs. 132-134
    The concept of curse is related to the heart. A person can only be called cursed when his heart turns away from God and becomes black and bereft of God’s mercy. When it is deprived altogether of the love of God and is emptied of all recognition of God and becomes spiritually blind like Satan. A person is cursed when he is filled with poison and severs all relationships with God, and becomes filled with rancor, hatred, discus and enmity towards God. He becomes God’s enemy and God becomes his enemy. Paul should have reflected on this definition of accursed, before inventing the doctrine of Jesus becoming accursed to free us from the curse of the law. This concept is not consistent with the holy status of Jesus and must be rejected to save Jesus from this vicious attack. Also, if Jesus is part of the trinity and so amalgamated with the Father, as if they were one, then how could Jesus be Holy as we all believe God is, and accursed at the same time.
    Regarding the authority of Paul to replace the covenant of Moses, to replace the LAW of Moses with faith, we read in the Old and New Testaments.
    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    Matthew 22: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    Jesus and his family followed the LAW
    Luke 2:And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
    Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
    Luke 16: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
    John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
    John 7:49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.
    Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    According to Deut. 29:15-19 all the followers of Moses were bound by the law, present and future. If they failed to comply, he warned of dire consequences. He warned of those who would urge his followers to abandon the law as “a root sprouting poisonous and bitter growth.”
    Deut: 29:15-19 14 I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you 15 who are standing here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God but also with those who are not here today.
    16 You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. 17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. 18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.
    Leviticus 18:5 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
    This law was to be obeyed forever. Duet:29:29 29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

    Deut 5:28 The LORD heard you when you spoke to me and the LORD said to me, “I have heard what this people said to you. Everything they said was good. 29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!

    Therefore, Paul represents that root that emits poison and the one who is considered the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. He had no authority or right to change the covenant between Moses and God and to preach to the Jews to abandon the law, regardless of he attempted to rationalize this concept.

  28. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    February 25, 2013 at 10:27 am

    How did Noah, Moses, Solomon or David receive salvation since they did not have the opportunity to belief in Jesus?

    Why can’t God forgive sins as a sin a violation of His commandments? He can easily forgive the sins of His servants without sending His “son” to suffer for mankind.

    Can a human father imagine sending his son to suffer for others? It sounds cruel. Why then attribute this cruelty to God who is the God of love and forgivness!

    If Jesus died for the sins of others then the Christian world should abolish all courts as no other sins/crimes should be punished since Jesus already died for their sins.

  29. Ernesto Garcia

    March 4, 2013 at 10:45 pm

    This is a very interesting items to read and study.

  30. Abraham bin Haque

    March 20, 2013 at 7:22 am

    Response to question 1:

    Sacrifice – Key to God’s Message!
    Surah 5, Al-Maaida, Ayah 27:
    Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Take note! Both presented a sacrifice (to Allah): it was accepted from one but not from the other. The latter said: “Be sure I will kill you.” “Surely” the former said, “Allah does accept the sacrifice of those who are righteous.”
    Jews, Christians and Muslims often live side by side in today’s diverse societies. Muslims and Christians are obligated to practice ‘dawah’ , to invite others to follow their religion. In order to graciously reason with each other in wisdom and fairness we must get to know one another’s beliefs. A better understanding of what is dear to the hearts of members of different faith communities will reduce fear, suspicion, discrimination, racism and in some cases even violence. This leaflet aims to provide the key that will enable the reader to understand the message of the Tawrah and the Injeel, also known as the ‘Holy Bible’: Sacrifice. This fascinating theme is found throughout its pages, binding them together with an invisible ‘red thread’ into one unified meaning. Since the Holy Book of the Muslims is, ‘…confirming the scriptures that came before it’ , parallels will be drawn to the concept of sacrifice mentioned in it.

    BACKGROUND TO FIRST SACRIFICE The word ‘sacrifice’ is defined as, “…a religious rite in which an object is offered to a divinity in order to establish, maintain, or restore a right relationship of a human being to the sacred order. It is a complex phenomenon that has been found in the earliest known forms of worship and in all parts of the world…” According to the Tawrah, the very fist recorded sacrifice to God in the history of mankind was made by Adam’s two sons, Cain and Abel. Muslims know them to be Qabil, the elder and Habil, the younger, whose sacrifice was accepted by God because he was righteous. What made him right before God? Why did He prefer the sacrifice of the one over the other? Where did this idea of sacrifice come from in the first place? The Quranic account does not tell us so it is in line with proper, academic research to find an answer to that question in the Tawrah and the Injeel where the same story was recorded before with additional details:
    “…In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. But Able brought fat portions from some of the first born of the flock. The LORD looked with favour on Able and his offering. But on Cain and his offering he did not look with favour…Then the LORD said to Cain: “…If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?” (Genesis 4:3-7)
    “By faith Able offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.” (Hebrews 11:4)
    God accepted Abel’s (Habil’s) sacrifice because it was offered by faith. What was the nature of his faith, on what revelation of God was it based? To answer that question we will firstly present circumstantial evidence. Both, the Tawrah and the Holy Quran, contain the story of how God created Adam and Eve. In paradise they were allowed to eat from all trees except one. Tempted by Satan they disobeyed God and as a result of this monstrous sin they became aware of their nakedness and covered their shame with leaves. God pronounced a terrible punishment upon them. They and their descendents had to leave paradise, being unable to continue enjoying a care free life and most of all, a personal relationship with their Creator. The following significant detail is only mentioned in the Tawrah:
    “The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.” (Genesis 3:21)
    God provided them with clothes made from animal skins to replace their insufficient covering of leaves. Is he thereby illustrating that men by themselves are unable to cover their shame caused by sin without the shedding of blood? Did God teach Adam and Eve the concept of sacrifice on this momentous occasion which they then passed on to their children? Two pieces of direct evidence allow us to answer in the affirmative.

    CONCEPT OF SACRIFICE Many years after our first parents, God appointed Moses as the leader of the Israelites. He chose them to serve the surrounding nations as an example of who their Creator is, of how to get back into a relationship with Him and by what principles He wanted everyone to live by. At the heart of God’s relationship with His people was an elaborate system of various sacrifices. By way of offering animals they were assured to get their sins forgiven:
    The LORD said to Moses and Aaron: ‘…Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish…Give it to Eleazar the Priest; it is to be taken outside the camp and slaughtered…(he) is to take some of its blood on his finger and sprinkle it seven times towards the front of the Tent of Meeting. ..While he watches, the heifer is to be burned…A man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and put them in a ceremonially clean place outside the camp. They shall be kept by the Israelite community for use in the water of cleansing; it is for purification from sin.’ (Num. 19:1-10)
    This central requirement of the law is also alluded to in the Holy Quran, Surah Al Baqarah, Ayahs 67-74. While Muslim commentators, such as Maududi and Yusuf Ali link it to Numbers 19:1-10, Ibn Kathir does not. All somewhat disagree among each other as to the meaning of the passage and therefore it is best to go back to the Tawrah, being the earliest and clearest source, where it was first explained. Moreover, all Muslim commentators do agree that in Surah, 17, Al Israa, Ayahs 1-7 the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem is mentioned. It was built in obedience to God’s commanded and has worship through sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins at the very heart of its existence! Surah 5:44 mentions Jewish priests. Both, Muslims and Christians, agree that the blood of animals can not take away sin. All three of God’s books, the Tawrah, Zabur and the Injeel, indicate that the sacrifices in the past point to a perfect sacrifice that was to come.

    ULTIMATE FULFILMENT OF SACRIFICE When God announced the punishment to Sheitan for misleading Adam and Eve, He said in poetic language:
    “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” (Genesis 3:15)
    Here we find the first of many prophecies by which God is announcing his plans to bring back men to their original state of a personal relationship with their Maker in paradise. Incredibly, someone who was to be born of a woman would overcome Sheitan and destroy his power! In his struggle the victorious one would have to endure temporary evil inflicted upon him. The following amazing prophecy in the Tawrah was made about 700 years before its fulfilment. It describes how He, like the animals who were sacrificed before Him, would die for the forgiveness of the sins of his people:
    “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all…he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” (Isaiah 53:5-12)
    In other prophecies that special person was clearly identified as the Messiah (Greek: Christ), a title given uniquely to Jesus in the Holy Quran and in the Holy Bible.
    Jesus Himself confirmed that he was the fulfilment of these prophecies:
    He (Jesus) said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” (Lu 24:44ff)
    What a profound and wonderful truth: Sins are forgiven, God is pleased when we believe in His sacrifice not when we bring our own sacrifice. This truth is foreshadowed in the famous story believed in by Muslims and Christians where Abraham was commanded to kill his son. There we read about God’s miraculous intervention and how He spared the troubled father from this terrible ordeal:
    “And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice”. (Surah 37, Al Saffat, Ayah 107)
    Why is the sacrifice which Muslims, Jews and Christians believe to have been a ram called ‘momentous’, especially when compared with Abraham’s son? Surely he is greater, more important, than a ram! The greatness of the sacrifice can not be found in that it serves as a symbol for an act of men’s self purification or devotion, or to commemorate Abraham’s faithfulness. If that was the case, there would be no need for God to provide HIMSELF with such a great sacrifice. The answer to the question lies in the word ‘ransom’. It means that a person, in this case Abraham’s son, is set free in exchange for someone or something else. When compared with Abraham’s son, the ram by itself is not very special; in that sense it is not great. Therefore, the real importance of it has to lie somewhere else. It points to the perfect sacrifice found in Jesus Christ as mentioned in the Injeel:
    ‘Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.’ (Hebrews 9:28)
    That truth found again and again in the Holy Bible can not have been abrogated; otherwise it would have to be replaced with something similar or better according to Surah 2, Al Baqarah, Ayah 106. What better could be offered to us than God personally dealing with our sins and with the shame we brought upon Him and ourselves, by supplying a great sacrifice for us in Jesus Christ?!

    RESPONSE AND RESULTS The literal meaning of the Arabic word “Injeel” is “Good News”. Jesus said that the way to properly respond to this best news God has ever given to mankind is to repent (meaning: change of mind resulting in turning around from sin) and to simply believe that Jesus died for our sins. Once a person trusts in what Jesus did and said, God will produce in them assurance of forgiveness instead of uncertainty, joy instead of sadness, selfless love and forgiveness instead of selfish hatred and fear. To live in such a sacrificial way in thankful response to God giving us eternal life with Him comes at a high prize. Followers of Jesus are told in the Holy Bible to be ready to suffer through persecution, through surrendering all of their life to God and His will. But surely it is only right to give to God what we can not keep anyway in order to win what we can not loose!

  31. thabitha

    March 29, 2013 at 1:30 am

    there is no no26th chapter in john, many of your references are wrong.

  32. thabitha

    March 29, 2013 at 2:22 am

    jesus did not defend himself or argue with the jews but he kept silent.

  33. thabitha

    March 29, 2013 at 2:42 am

    JESUS DIED. HE RAISED. I PRAY FOR YOUR SALVATION.

  34. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    March 29, 2013 at 4:18 pm

    All Muslims have to believe in Jesus as one of
    The prophet sent by God in order to be a Muslim.
    We respect and love him and because of it we want to
    present our point of view of the Prophet Jesus. Not
    to insult our Christian friends but to share our
    view for a productive discussion. Another relevant
    article posted on TMT today on The Muslim
    Jesus.

    http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/03/islam-a-religion-of-peace/the-muslim-jesus

  35. Rob Bell

    April 1, 2013 at 7:54 am

    You are all misled, there is no god and jesus was simply a prophet and led others to believe in him. Religion exists in all forms so mankind has reasons for our existence. Religion = money. When you die, you are just that, DEAD! Souls, Heaven, Hell etc…MYTHS! Why waste your time and energy on nonsense?

  36. Ghulam Sarwar

    April 2, 2013 at 4:21 pm

    There have been many comments. I had previously commented. Now I mention again that at the heart of this whole discussion is the questionable conversion of Saul of Tarsus. Only he is a witness to that. He said he saw Jesus.

    Did Jesus in his life time predict that his enemy (Saul) will convert and become a believer?? Never. Jesus never said such a thing. So conversion of Saul is questionable.

    Did Jesus appear to any other beloved disciple to give that all important news about the conversion of Saul? No. Jesus did not inform any one else that “Saul is no more an enemy, that he has become a friend. That I have appeared to Saul and guided him.” There is no such information from Jesus.

    How come, a person who was an enemy of Jesus and who had killed many (Jews) believing friends of Jesus, how come he should become a leader of all Christians? And the Christians should take him as their most important leader?

    He almost became a prophet or messenger from God. But he was a false prophet and messenger. i.e. a wolf in sheep clothing. Please note the words of Deut 18:20 shown below:

    Deuteronomy 18:20-22
    New International Version (NIV)
    20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

    We Muslims believe that Jesus was a true man from God. He was a messenger from God because Jesus told that God had sent him.
    But this fellow, Saul was not any messenger from God. He tried to be a messenger and because he was a false messenger, he spoke things from God which God had not commanded him to speak, Saul was beheaded. He was killed. That fact is well known to all Muslims and Christians.
    He tried to avoid his killing but could not avert it, could not save himself. That fact is enough from the Old Testament that he was a false man. There is no need of any more proof for that. Nobody need to learn anything from Paul i.e. Saul of Tarsus. Every one should learn from the words of Jesus only.
    And Jesus taught all very well while he was present amongst his men. Jesus supported the law of Moses. He wanted to fulfill the law, meaning that Jesus wanted complete obedience to the law of Moses a.s.
    Fulfillment of the law did not mean to abondon the God given law.
    Every Christian should be careful, where he is going, Quo Vadis?

    Every day, the church people are changing the previous words of the holy Bible to suit their purpose. In Deut 18:20. it was meant to convey that the false prophet will be killed.
    They have now amended it to say that “A false prophet will die.” That is in many versions now.
    Is this not a clever move to mislead the people? Every one dies. But not every one is killed.

    We Muslims read the Bible and by the Grace of Allah, having guidance from the Quran, we can understand many passages of the bible.
    WE see that there is no blood sacrifice for atonement in bible. There was no need to have the old testament attached with the new testament when church had abondoned the law of Moses. Jesus had taught that new wine should not be put in old bottles…. For that reason, New Testament should not be put in old Testament…
    Everything that the church has now is different to what it was in the time of Jesus a.s. The NT contains more pages from Paul i.e. Saul than they contain from the original friends of Jesus.
    The Injeel meaning good news is correct. Jesus knew the hard times ahead and he told his followers about it. He gave the good news of a Comforter (Parcalete) to come after. He said that God will give his followers another comforter. It meant that he himself was a comforter and God will give another comforter who will complete his mission.
    Jesus said, “I have many things to say unto you but you cannot bear them now…… Howbeit when the spirit of Truth (Comforter) will come, he shall guide you into all truth…” (John 16:12,13,14) That was the good news that Jesus gave to his followers in the time of difficulty.
    Let us please come to some understanding. Abraham Ishaque has presented a strong case in favor of the present beliefs of the Church. But reality seems far away. It is necessary for all Jews and Christians and Muslims to come to some understanding about the most important man i.e. Jesus. The church belief that Jesus is a man and a god is another big contradiction (obstacle, double role of Jesus). The Muslims and the Jews can never accept that double role.

  37. Johnny R Deaton

    April 6, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    the fact is that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead proves it self cause you are trying so hard to disprove it.i’m not a very educated man but there is a person called the Holy Spirit that makes evidence to believers that Yeshua is real and until you have experienced it you cannot understand it,so i suggest you try it so you will know what i’m talking about. history is fact! Muhammed was a fact i don’t deny it and he was a good man-it’s history. Jesus was killed and risen-it’s history.we cannot deny history. Islam has been tainted after Muhammed died and so has Christianity.Muhammed preached peace and kindness-but there are verses of destruction after his death-Jesus always taught peace,love and kindness never destruction!by the way the stone was moved not so Jesus could get out but that we may get in! may God bless you!!!!

  38. Ghulam Sarwar

    April 7, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Preaching in the name of the son (Jesus) and holy ghost (The blessed angel) and the father (God Almighty)as told by Jesus a.s. (written in last chapter, last verses, of Mathew is okay, permissible. Church derives Trinity from that verse. That is not okay.

    Jesus a.s. told to preach in his name and holy spirit and God Almighty. That is the only way for the Christians and they cannot do without it. They are actually preachng in the name of God Almighty. For that to be permitted or accepted, the name of Jesus and holy spirit is necessary because the teaching has been sent through holy spirit and Jesus. That is the address or source of the Bible NT teachings.
    If any one asks wherefrom is all this, it would be necessary to tell that it from Jesus through holy Spirit. It does not mean that Jesus and holy ghost should be made a god.

    Jesus told to preach in his name and mention holy ghost in preaching. He did not say that make a god out of me and the holy ghost.
    Now the Church has the problem to explain Trinity which they can never do. How is one in three and three in One as gods. They have the funny belief that God is One and there are three gods at the same time. That is quite a contradiction.
    There was no need to get into that trouble if they had read the message correctly.

    So many other problems follow from making Jesus as god. Jesus is a man and Jesus is a God, that is double role. He is son of God and son of man.

    We respect Jesus and love him very much. We love his mother too and we like most of the four gospels of New testament.

  39. Rain Mikamura

    April 18, 2013 at 9:05 am

    Dear Muslim brothers and Christian brothers, please be enlighten with the words of Jesus during his first words while he is still a baby. If you believe in Jesus, see Surah Number 19: Maryam verses 33-34 of the Quran. Why would baby Jesus said these words, “And the same peace on me the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am raised alive.” Verse 34 says, “This is Iesa the son of Maryam, a word of truth in which they doubts.” This is a complete contradiction to the claim that Jesus did not die.

  40. Abu

    April 20, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Jesus Slept!
    Did Jesus dies in a narcotic trance?
    By Gloria Moss

    June 2001

    The idea that Jesus might not have died on the Cross, but was buried alive in some kind of narcotic trance, would have been a fatal heresy in the 12th century. But Gloria Moss has found some literary and herbal hints of this ‘secret’ among mediæval writers of classical romances.

    Mysteries turn up in the strangest places. Buried in a story by the 12th-century writer Chrétien de Troyes is the tale of a beautiful woman who decides to escape an arranged marriage and elope with a young, handsome knight. Her motives are understandable enough, but the way she sets about it is strange indeed. Instead of simply eloping – an act that would tarnish her reputation – she decides to feign death and then run off in secret with her lover. To simulate her own death, she takes a narcotic potion and, three days after burial in a new tomb, is resurrected.

    Parts of Chrétien’s story are strikingly familiar. There are elements not only of Romeo and Juliet – the potion, the tomb and the awakening – but also of the crucifixion story. Consider the parallels. The woman, like Jesus and Juliet, dies after taking a drink; she, like Jesus, is buried in a new tomb and restored to life three days later; even the heroine’s name, Fénice – the French for phœnix – serves as a reminder of Jesus, since the phœnix was used as a symbol of Christ and his resurrection in mediæval times. These and other allusions to the New Testament crucifixion story suggested that Chrétien was making a point. He was getting as near as he could to questioning a fundamental tenet of Christianity – Jesus’ resurrection.

    Both Chrétien and Shakespeare were sailing close to the wind. The 12th century was not a time when it was possible overtly to question Christian orthodoxy, since state and church were closely linked. However, Chrétien was writing for the court of Champagne, a court with links to the Templars and notable for producing translations of the Bible; he might have calculated that with such backing, it was safe enough to criticise Christianity through the medium of a story. He may have been right, but with the few details we have of his life, nothing is certain. All that we know is that his last work, Perceval – the earliest version of the Grail story – was never completed. Gerbert de Montreuil, one of the writers who continued it, claimed that death prevented Chrétien from completing his work. Was this a natural end, or could he have been pushed? It seemed to me that an investigation was called for.

    Many questions suggest themselves. If Chrétien had reason to believe, for example, that Jesus took a narcotic potion on the cross, what could it have been? And are there any other traces in his work of a belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion?

    Various people have suggested in the past that Jesus may have survived the crucifixion, citing as proof the fact that blood flowed from the lance wound after he was declared dead. (It is medical opinion that blood cannot flow from a corpse.) Two of the more recent books – The Jesus Conspiracy and The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail – suggest that he owed his survival to a potion containing opium and vinegar. The inclusion of vinegar should come as no surprise, since all the Gospel accounts, except Luke’s, refer to the fact that Jesus’ death followed his being offered a sponge soaked with vinegar.

    The idea that the sponge contained opium might appear superficially attractive – even the first-century master of herbalism, Dioscorides (above, c. AD 60–75), refers to the sleep-inducing qualities of opium – but there are several arguments against it. First, the largest component in the opium, morphine, produces rapid breathing, a very different effect from the “giving up of the breath” reported of Jesus. Then, morphine is absorbed only slowly by the body, arguing against the sudden reaction reported after Jesus took the vinegar. Last but not least is the fact that vinegar, according to Dioscorides, counteracts every poison “and in particular opium.” This would not be disputed today, since the effect of combining acetic acid (vinegar) with morphine sulphate (the narcotic component of opium) is to produce a substance – morphine acetate – which is less effective as a narcotic than the original morphine sulphate.

    The idea that a vinegar-based potion contained opium can therefore be scotched. Ninth- and 12th-century sources point to another possibility. According to the Antidotarium of Nicolai of Salerno, a soporific sponge could be applied to patients’ nostrils to create a state of anæsthesia. He suggests that one of the substances in the sponge was mandrake.

    According to Dioscorides, touching or eating the apple-like fruit of the plant could bring on tiredness, and the root and bark were even more potent. Cooked in vinegar, the root could leave a person unconscious for up to three or four hours, leading Dioscorides to recommend its use for “people about to be cut or cauterised (who) wish to become insensible to the pain.” The bark could produce a “dead sleep”, and a whiff of it was enough to produce a death-like stupor.

    In the 1890s, a doctor, Benjamin Ward Richardson, carried out experiments with mandrake. He administered a mixture of alcohol and mandrake root to pigeons and rabbits, and found that not only did it act as a “general anæsthetic of the most potent quality,” but the “animals’ hearts continued to beat after their respiration had ceased.” Interestingly, New Testament accounts describe Jesus as having “given up the breath.” We now know that mandrake contains a mydriatic alkaloid, mandragorine (C17 H27 O3 N), which interferes with the transmission of nerve impulses across pathways. You only need to block a few pathways to produce a devastating effect and stop all sensation or control of movement.

    There are references to mandrake in the Old Testament, showing that it grew in biblical lands (Genesis 30:14; Song of Songs 7:11–13). There also appear to be references to mandrake in the work of the first-century historian Josephus. Josephus refers to a plant ba’ar (a word meaning to burn) as having characteristics which are associated only with mandrake. He also says that it shines brightly at night – a feature of mandrake described elsewhere. Further, the root of mandrake came to be valued as a talisman, believed to confer on people their every wish.

    So, if Chrétien de Troyes imagined that Jesus had taken a narcotic, there is a fair chance that he might have thought the substance in question to be mandrake. Is there any more tangible evidence that he had this in mind? His last, unfinished work, Perceval, provides a clue.

    Perceval was written some time before 1188 and describes an extraordinary encounter between its hero, Perceval, and an object referred to as the Grail. He first glimpses this in a procession in which a squire grasps a lance dripping with blood. The description of the Grail does not, on the face of it, give much away about its true nature. According to Chrétien, it shines so brightly that it eclipses the stars and maintains the life of a man (the Fisher King’s father) who had sustained a serious wound in years past. Perceval’s big mistake, the story tells us, was not to ask why the lance bled. Had he done so, we are told, the man’s suffering would have come to an end.

    The emphasis on the bleeding lance directs one back to the crucifixion (see The Holy Spear, FT140:66). An escape of blood is not generally consistent with death, a fact which was acknowledged by the church father Origen in the second century AD. The existence of a bleeding lance would remind doubting minds of these facts, and further poignancy would be created by the knowledge that Perceval was reluctant to ask why the lance bled. The answer was unorthodox.

    That is not all. The descriptions of the Grail also lead back to the crucifixion since – and this has not been remarked on before – descriptions of it are reminiscent of mandrake. In fact, the Grail was imputed with all the characteristics of mandrake. It supplied people with whatever they wanted (the mandrake’s talismanic qualities) and it shone brightly at night (as did the mandrake). Moreover, its third attribute – of forestalling death – was linked to mandrake’s anæsthetic qualities insofar as the apparent death induced by mandrake is followed by a resurrection, showing, by inference, that mandrake prevents lasting death.

    The realisation that the Grail stands for mandrake is an indication that the story is a cipher for Chrétien’s heretical beliefs about the crucifixion. This shows that Chrétien’s purpose may have been far from innocent, and that he may have intended an attack on Christian orthodoxy. Perhaps, then, the death that prevented his completion of Perceval was no accident. This would not be surprising; his patron for Perceval, the Count of Flanders (the man credited with giving Chrétien the book on which the story is based) was related to a founder member of the Templars, and his other patron, the Countess of Champagne, was related by marriage to another founder member. In another hundred years the Templars would be the target of an Inquisition which accused them of blasphemy and heresy, and denying and spitting on the cross.

    Quite clearly, Templar beliefs did not coincide with Christian orthodoxy. Some say that the Templars looked for and discovered secret scrolls under the Temple in Jerusalem, and it is possible that the Templars communicated their findings to the court of Champagne, and thence to Chrétien. Thereafter, these heterodox ideas survived intact in the pages of other, apparently innocent, literary texts, including a story in Boccaccio’s Decameron, Romeo and Juliet, and Snow White, and are worthy of some consideration.

    Boccaccio’s story tells of an abbot who uses an anæsthetic potion to send a husband, his rival in love, to purgatory (he is given enough powder to put him to sleep for three days). The abbot keeps him in a darkened cell for several months, and then only allows him to be ‘resurrected’ as the man’s wife falls pregnant by the abbot. The husband is convinced that he has “risen from the dead” and is universally believed.

    Then there is Romeo and Juliet, in which another man of the church, a friar, provides a narcotic potion. All three elements of the crucifixion story are here – death after taking liquid, burial in a tomb, and resurrection three days later. One of Shakespeare’s sources – Da Porto’s tale of Romeo e Giulietta (1530) – even appears to offer an ironic allusion to Jesus’ “I thirst” in the fact that Giulietta feigns thirst as she prepares to take the potion.

    Finally, we have Giovanni Battista’s 17th-century story of Snow White. The apparently innocent story of a young girl who eats an apple and enters a deep sleep is yet another allusion to mandrake, for its fruit – a whiff of which could knock you out – was often likened to apples.

    The mystery has come full circle. Chrétien in the 12th century dared to question orthodox beliefs. He may have sacrificed his life as a consequence.

  41. Abu

    April 20, 2013 at 9:44 am

    Jesus was granted ELAVATION from a heinous end on the cross, but if u want to read it he was given an ELAVATOR straight UP, then soot yourself but up above which country, up is relative to EARTH. Either read it God LIFTED him beyond their ill intentions or gave him LIFTOFF, UP to you. Wait a minute did I just say that, where UP are you. Does this RAISE any fresh perspectives. So you need more altitude for a better vantage point.

  42. Christopher Michael Emmanuel

    April 20, 2013 at 11:34 pm

    All Muslims, and Jews and Christians are suffering from a false belief. I ask you would any god worth his name ask you to kill your son? Commandment No.13 says “Thou shalt not kill” No but you continue to believe that it was that same Allah who gave us the 10 Commandments asked the prophet Abraham to kill his son. None are willing to believe that the Devil also
    masquerades as Allah. They have given full freedom to the Devil to call himself Allah and get away with all the false stories in the Bible. The good prophet Abraham was sincerely lead into believing that the commandment to kill his son was from God & without reflecting upon the truth that God gives life and not death went about to carry out that commandment which was from the Devil but only Jesus spoke the truth when he said to the Jews that their father was the Devil who was a murderer from the beginning.
    Jews and Muslims please wake up! “The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.”[Romans 13:12]

    -Christopher Michael Emmanuel
    New Delhi, June 21, 2013

    Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/04/religion/christianity/65-reasons-to-believe-jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross#ixzz2R5KPpn9u

  43. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    April 21, 2013 at 1:42 am

    The parable of Abraham trying to sacrifice his son and God preventing him from literally doing that and replacing it with animal sacrifice, may precisely be the reason, why we have human rights today and human sacrifice, is not longer deemed sensible.

    I believe, this incident from life of Patriarch Abraham should be seen more in this metaphorical light, rather than a strict, legalistic sense, to appreciate its true significance.

  44. Ghulam Sarwar

    April 21, 2013 at 10:42 pm

    It is foolish to say that God is devil. That would reverse everything. There would be no truth in any matter. Such bad things could be said about Jesus too whose whole life is not well known. Will any one agree to that! Surely not.

    Jesus spent his first twelve years in Egypt. Then nothing is known for another 18 years as to what he was doing till he started preaching at the age of 30.

    He was vehemently opposed and ridiculed when he entered the field, riding, in company with his mother and many followers. It is all described in Quran and holy Bible NT.

    I tell you that no one has described the matter of Jesus birth and his ministry better than what is described in the Quran. It is so beautiful in Quran. I will just write a few words on this subject from the Quran, chapter 19, verses,…17 to 34.
    —————————————–
    19:17. And describe the story of Mary as mentioned in the book, when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place.

    19:18. And she was cut-off from her parents. Then we sent our angel to her and he appeared to her in the form of a perfect (desirable) man.

    19:19. She said, “I seek refuge with the gracious God from thee if indeed thou also be a God fearing person.” ( She was so pious that she could not tolerate the company of a handsome man even in her vision.)

    19:20. He replied, “I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I give you good news of a grown up purified , righteous son.”

    19:21. She said, “How can I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not an unchaste person.”

    19:22. He said, “Like that, says your Lord, it is easy for me and We shall do so that We may make him a sign unto mankind and make him a mercy from Us and it was a matter fully ordained (decided).”

    19:23. So she conceived him and she moved to a far away place with him (in her womb).

    19:24. And the pains of child birth drew her to the trunk of a palm tree. She cried out, “O, would that I had died before this and had become a thing quite unknown.”

    19:25. And then he called her from beneath her, saying, “Grieve not. Thy Lord made a rivulet to flow under thee. (These words have special, high level meanings.)

    19:26. “And shake towards thee the trunk of the palm tree. It will drop fresh ripe dates to fall upon thee.”

    19:27. “So eat and drink and cool thy eyes. And if you meet any mortal man, you say, “I have vowed a fast to my gracious God. I will not speak to any one on this day or ever after.”

    19:28. Then she brought him (Jesus) to her people, having him carried (on a donkey). They said, “O Mary, surely thou hast brought a strange thing.”

    19:29. “O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man nor was your mother any rebellious person (against religion.)

    19:30. Then she pointed to him (to Jesus). They said, “How can we speak meaningfully with a one who had been a child in the cradle.”

    19:31. He (Jesus) said, “I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the book and made me a prophet.”

    19:32. “And He has made me blessed where ever I may be and has enjoined upon me regular prayer and payment of poor money as long as I live.”

    19:33.” And he has made me dutiful (and kind) to my mother and He has not made me haughty and arrogant.”

    19:34. “And there is peace upon me the day I was born and the day I die and the day I am raised to life again.”
    —————————————
    These verses state that when Jesus was born, his mother was in transit. There was no good facility available at the time of delivery. That agrees with Bible saying that Jesus was placed in a manger. Mary suffered much at the time of delivery. These were pains of child birth. (V. 24)

    Mary was told not to lose hope, but to try to seek help. She will be helped. (V.26). She was told to eat and drink and be happy with the child. She was specially told not to discuss anything seriously with any one. That meant she should not speak on religious matters any more, i.e. she was not to indulge in religious discussions any more, as she used to do previously. That meant she should not preach any more. Also she was not to tell any one about the high status of her son (Jesus). (V. 27)

    The child (Jesus) grew up of full age and Mary was hoping for a good result (return) by her son’s work in the way of God. With great hopes and expectations, when she brought her son before her people while he was being carried (on animal, he was riding), Mary was having much hope that her son will be accepted by the people (Jewish nation) and the work in the way of God will be done easily. But the people said, “O Mary, you have brought a strange (unusual) thing.” (Something they did not expect at all.) (V. 28)

    They also said, “O, sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man and your mother was also not rebellious (against Jewish faith).” (V. 29)

    Please note that Quran calls Mary sister of Aaron and not sister of Moses. Moses and Aaron were brothers. Why Quran calls Mary as sister of Aaron? It is because she was well known as brought up and employed on the service of the temple (Under Zakariyya a.s.). That was the nature of her duties being same as those of Aaron a.s. (The Levites, bani Lavi)

    I have to add more here. When Jesus started his preaching, the misguided elders of the Jews were trapped. They were exposed as being far away from the Jewish law. They were exposed as the corrupt leaders.
    When they were trapped and had no way to escape, they came to Mary seeking her help in the matter so that she could control her son to behave himself. So that he stops his preaching. The elders sought the help of Mary. (V. 29)

    But she was already advised by God Almighty that she should not indulge in any serious discussion. She should not take part in any sensible discussion. Kalaam in Arabic means useful, meaningful speech. It is not idle talk. She was forbidden about making any sermon. That job will be well done by her son (Jesus).

    Mary pointed to her son. She told the religious leaders that they were high religious persons and her son was also talking about religious matters. They should discuss the matters with him. (V. 30)

    Then the Jewish elders said, “How can we discuss anything with some one who was (had been) a child who used to suck mother’s milk in mother’s lap; meaning that Jesus had no status in comparison with the elders. (V. 30)

    At that time, Jesus spoke up, “ I am a servant of God (Abdullah). He (God) has given me the book and made me a prophet.” “And He has made me blessed where ever I may be and He has advised me to offer regular prayers and pay the poor money as long as I live.” “And (ordered me that) I should be kind and respectful to my mother and He has not made me arrogant, disobedient person.”

    “There is peace on me on the day I was born and on the day I die and on the day I am raised to life again.” (Verses 31 to 34.)

    The above, last lines, are the words of Jesus a.s. in the Quran chapter 19. Any one can read it there. Now please think over about all these matters. These are the words which are revealed to the prophet Muhammad by God Almighty. He (Muhammad, in peace with Allah) has recorded them for us in the Quran. It is telling us all about Jesus and his mother and what happened to them.

    We Muslims love Jesus and his mother and his friends and his teachings. We do not love the enemies of Jesus. Or any one who had been an enemy of Jesus. We love the Jews too because Jesus belonged to the Jews. Good or bad, he is still their man. They can love or hate him as they like.

  45. Adegbite Ayodeji Wakil

    April 28, 2013 at 3:12 am

    Forget ego issues and embrace the truth,and I think counter ideas should be directed to the points made by the author,and this is supposed to be a platform where truth battles it out with truth,the only difference is what the various parties conceives as truth,but then our failure to accept the truth is a betrayal of our concience,and perhaps of our very existence!

  46. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    April 28, 2013 at 3:28 am

    “When it is not in our power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is most probable.” René Descartes

  47. Christopher Michael Emmanuel

    April 28, 2013 at 4:25 pm

    All Muslims, and Jews and Christians are suffering from a false belief. I ask you would any god worth his name ask you to kill your son? Commandment No.13 says “Thou shalt not kill” No but you continue to believe that it was that same Allah who gave us the 10 Commandments asked the prophet

  48. Amtul Q Farhat

    April 29, 2013 at 3:55 am

    I must admit that reading the blog above is more intresting than the post itself.

  49. Joshva

    May 2, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    Zia H. Shah MD
    U are trying to make a true to false… This is what u trying to do is to prove false things to true… The only thing is believe in Jesus then only u can able to come out this thing. JESUS WILL SAVE U… JESUS LOVES U..

  50. Jason

    May 2, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    This one great article by Tark El Nimir reveal a shocking biblical fact:

    One maybe confuse to learn that Jesus said “if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death” John 8:51”, yet Jesus referring to himself said “they will condemn him to death” Matthew 20:18. How can the one who keep Jesus’ words live forever, but Jesus himself Died?. In fact, never have the four Gospels ever mentioned the phrase: “Jesus resurrected”. Why?

    The New Testament uses the words (death-die)for spiritual death. Yet for a righteous mans’ physical death, which is a separation of the soul from the body, the New Testament used the words “fallen asleep” translated from the Greek word {κοιμάω- koimaó}.

    Shockingly, when it came to the only sinless man in the Bible “JESUS”, the Bible always says “Jesus died” . WHY?

    The answer is so simple and…READ MORE @ http://www.godrevelation.org/the-death-god-in-the-cross/..

  51. Ra'ees

    May 13, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    To my dear christian brethren. We all might not be brothers and sisters in faith but we are indeed brothers and sisters in humanity and we all have been created from one soul.let us come together and use our intelligence and reasoning faculties that the almighty has blessed us with.I noticed from the above comments no one has mentioned Barnabus a disciple of Jesus may peace be upon him,so I’d like to metion a thing or two. The Gospel of Barnabas is the only known surviving gospel written by a disciple of Jesus(pbuh),that is by a man who spent most his time in the actual company of jesus during the 3 years in which he was delivering his message.He therefore had direct expereince and knowledge of Jesus’s (pbuh) teaching,unlike all the authors of the four accepted Gospels. Here we have an eyewitness account of Jesus’s life.The Gospel of barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the churches of Alexandria up until 325 A.D. It is known that it was being circulated in the first and second centuries after the birth of Jesus peace be upon him..In 325 AD the famous council of Nicea was held. The Doctrine of the Trinity was declared to be the official doctrine of the Pauline church and one of the consequences of this decision. Was that out of the three hundred or so Gospels extant at the time four were chosen as the official Gospels of the Church. The remaining Gospels were ordered to be destroyed- it was also decided that all Gospels written in hebrew should be destroyed. Anyone found with an unauthorised Gospel would be put to death. This was the first well- organised attempt to remove all the records of Jesus’s original teaching .In the case of the Gospel of barnanbas these orders were not entirely successful and mention of its continued existence has been made up to the present day.I urge All Christians to Read the Gospel of Barnabas you will find therein true teachings and sayings of our beloved Messiah Jesus son of Mary- may peace be upon them both. I’d like to end with an invite to Islam. The True Religion of Submission,Surrendering And Obedience to The Almighty and in doing so we will attain true peace and contentment in this World and the next God willing. It promotes compassion, love,harmony,Justice,equality,discipline and more. We are all accountable for our actions and will rewarded as such in the hereafter- this is indeed the Teaching of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses,Jesus And Mohamed May peace be upon them all-they All called towards the Worship of the CreaTOR and Not CreaTED. This is True Abrahamic Monotheism. I also Urge everyone of you to read the Quran and see for yourself you don’t have to take my word or anyones word- You read it and can decide on your own, you owe it to yourself. May Peace,Mercy and the blessings of the Almighty be upon you All.

  52. Abraham bin Haque

    May 24, 2013 at 2:55 am

    Dear All,

    I am still looking for a response to my post dated 20 March 2013 where I copied a short article.

    The death and resurrection of Jesus has to be understood in its wider context:

    What happened to the sacrifices mentioned in the Torah as the basis to get forgiveness? The words’ “sacrifice(s)”/“offering(s)” are found 1047 times in the Holy Bible and only 16 times in the Holy Qur’ān but there they never refer to the forgiveness of sins. How can that be possible if the Quran is supposed to confirm the message of previous Scriptures?

    On what basis do Muslims get forgiveness from Allah? Please let me know your thoughts.

    Kind regards,

    Abraham

  53. Ghulam Sarwar

    June 2, 2013 at 4:11 am

    Beautiful words of advice from Ra’ees on 13 May 2013. Good advice to go to the friend (real disciple) of Jesus (a.s.), such as Barnabas and not to Paul who was an enemy.

    It was a clear bad deed to destroy the real good gospels and replace them with weaker versions in 325 A.D. Let us worship the Creator and not the created (Jesus a.s.)

  54. Aleksandra

    June 14, 2013 at 3:08 am

    I have written a long comment a couple of weeks ago, why isn’t it published? I did not offend anyone, just answered some of the questions above. Are you afraid of arguments which prove a different faith?

  55. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    June 14, 2013 at 3:10 am

    We are not afraid of the Christian arguments, precisely the opposite is true.

    Please do not give us a whole thesis. May be one argument at a time, in 2-3 paragraphs and we will tackle it.

    Thank you

  56. Aleksandra

    June 14, 2013 at 4:00 am

    some comments here are very long, mine was nowhere near these!
    what I meant now is that I constructed a paragraph answering Abraham bin Haque questions, but it was never published.

    God’s fogiveness is His promise to us (vide the parallel of the merciful Samaritan), and noone – NOONE – can actually say someone is not going to be forgiven

    but in the same time we can “secure” the path to God following Jesus’s words: “noone comes to Father in a different way than through me” and “I am the Way, the Tryth, the Life”. And I believe it because I believe the source that says it, but I also believe my personal experience of meeting Him.

    Jesus did hundreds of miracles that hundreds of people saw and documented, the Bible itself is the most historically proven “ancient” book that exists. It has hundreds of copies from very early days and they are all compatible with each other, they point exactly the same texts. If you examin the way other “old” books are preserved you will be astonished how reliable the Bible original text is. I recommend that you read the history of Bible before you start the arguments of its “corruption”.

    In fact it is Quran that mentions people and places that NO OTHER BOOK mentions, it is impossible to verify it. Yu believe the book is the miracle, but the only sourse of this faith is… Koran itself. And there are no other ‘indifferent’ sources confirming it.

  57. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    June 19, 2013 at 6:14 am

    Dear Aleksandra

    The Bible is / was word of God, but, has not been preserved over time and it has been adulterated.

    Most Christians now understand my above claim.

    Have you heard the name of Prof. Bart Ehrman?

    Please search his name in the Muslim Times, Youtube and Amazon. Please watch some of his videos and read some of his books, to move from the 19th century to 21st, please.

  58. Aleksandra

    June 19, 2013 at 6:50 am

    Sorry, but most christians, in fact – ALL OF THEM – believe in the Bible, otherwise they would not be called/called themselves “christians”

    I have not ehard about Bart Ehrman, but have you heard about Joseph Ratzinger and million other christian scholars, who examine and scrutinize the Bible for the past 2000 years and still proclaim its truth…?

  59. Aleksandra

    June 19, 2013 at 6:56 am

    Sorry, but what you are stating is not true. Most christians, in fact – ALL OF THEM – believe in the Bible, otherwise they would not be called/called themselves “christians”… No word was altered whatsoever, there are of course various translations, but no meaning have been altered.
    Exluded or added. Church’s councils were only officially ‘stamping’ the collection of writings, which were in common and public use already, just to make it easier to find all scriptures together. What we call the canon of the Bible today.

    I have not ehard about Bart Ehrman, but have you heard about Joseph Ratzinger, Gerge Weigel and few thousands other christian scholars, who have been examining and scrutinizing the Bible for the past 2000 years and still proclaim its truth…? Does the name St. Augustine ring any bells?

  60. Aleksandra

    June 19, 2013 at 10:39 pm

    The fact that one scholar is lying/misled/prejudiced does not mean there is any truth in it. There are scholars proving him wrong (and I am not a scholar so I would be lying if I said I can prove it myself – look for Lee Stobel, for a start, but the biggest authorities here are true teologists like Joseph Ratzinger, one of the wisest men in the history).

    Did you know there were over 300 prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament? His origin, the way He will be born, the way He will die and what for…

    Leave alone scholars and debates, all we can do is quote them as none of us has been there when these events happen and can witness ourselves, can we? At the end of the day all of is the matter of FAITH: If all could be mathematically proven there would be no faith needed, neither in the Bible nor in Quran.

    Jesus said: “by their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” (Mt 7:16)

    If you are truly looking for truth then try thinking why is there so much hatred, death and violence in the muslim world and why don’t christians strike back but embrace muslim in their countries instead…? because we christians take our strength to love from our Lord, who died Himself and risen, now the death has no power on Him any more, so our faith in Him conquers all the death in us.

  61. Abdul Alim

    June 19, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    And Ms. Aleksandra how do you explain spainish inquisition, burning of 5000 women on stakes and bloody wars that killed a large part of Europe in middle ages- Perhaps all out of love of Christ and the final conquest over death. can you explain which nations were engaged in first and second world war and dropped and atom bomb over japan resulting in millions of human deaths? Were they all Muslims? Of course all the children abused by the Catholic chruch were abused in the name of christ or these were all muslims disguised as catholic priests? please open your eyes and try to overcome your Islamophobia so that your intellect can breathe some fresh air. May Allah guide you.

  62. Aleksandra

    June 19, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    commonly known facts on spanish inquisitions are lies too – in fact for their times it was very modern, progressive and MERCIFUL approach to trials, do some deep reasearch rather than watching talking heads on youtube, please.

    Then, don’t start the bidding on the number of victims here, does the Ormian massacre ring any bells?

    and if it comes to pedofilia… in the church problem happens, but it is dealt with and not shuffled inder the carpet, as if nothing happened(read the facts and the statements of the pope!). …

    Allah cannot enlighten me as he is only an moon god, my light is Jesus and I breath in deeply.

    Now I doubt you will publish my comment, but this is only the reposponse to Mr Abdul Alim, so if you cancel this response it means you are not allowing a fair debate.

  63. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    June 20, 2013 at 11:05 am

    wow… The inquisition was modern – may be for its time – and MERCIFUL, well, that is a new interpretation that I never heard before.

  64. ISHMAEL

    June 20, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    you people ask funny questions. how can somebody come to die for you and you expect that the person should not die.humans have sinned from the very beginning God had a master plan to bring human close to him through the removal of their sins.it is for this purpose that Jesus came to take away the sins of mankind and reconcile man with God by laying his blood to wash us from our sins.so why should he save himself.if the Jews were telling him to save himself cos he saved others, means the knew he had the powers to free himself and wanted to test him not knowing that they are fulfilling the prophecy said by the prophets of old that a virgin shall conceive and give birth to a child that will save mankind.please try to read the bible well and you will discover that Jesus was only fulfilling what was already written.Allah Bless you as you seek the truth cause only the truth can free your mind.remain blessed

  65. ISHMAEL ASHER

    June 20, 2013 at 12:36 pm

    All what has been said by you guys to prove that Jesus is not the son of God doesn’t hold true. if u are send to die for some body why would you save yourself. Again Jesus did not resurrect as a spirit, he resurrected body and spirit. and the wounds were not meant to show God rather there are

  66. Aleksandra

    June 20, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    to mr Rafiq – we learn all life, if we want to

    please, start with reading this short article, there are futher links inside if you are interested

    http://douglawrence.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/interesting-facts-about-the-spanish-inquisition/

    (NB this is the reason why the Pope never apologized for “the wrongs” of the inquisition, unlike other wrongs of the church in the history – there is nothing to apologize for)

    the inquisition introduced documenting of the processes and the institution of an advocate, unlike the “laic” trials (governed by the political authorities) of that time

    people preferred to be processed by the inquisition court as their treatment was much more fair that this of the “government” courts

    Then, in reality there were very few death sentences comparing to these laic trials, for example the number of death sentences issued by the most famous Spanish Inquisitior Bernard Guy is 42 theough his whole “career” – if you read “In the name of the Rose” you can get a totally different (false) impression; Then, the death sentences were given on people who were dangerous for the society. These were different times, where community mattered more than an individual. But even today, imagine a mad terrorist preaching people false islam full of hatred, leading them astray… we would prosecute them today too, to protect the society

    you should read a lot more about the background and the facts, not base you information on the novels and hollywood films (which most people do, unfortunately)

    hope it helps

  67. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    June 20, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    My dear Aleksandra

    For more than three centuries, after 1492 CE, there was not a single Muslim allowed to live in Europe.

    In contrast to that, India was a Muslim majority country after ten centuries of Muslim rule.

    One can have ones opinion but not ones own facts.

    Hope it helps.

    Tolerance: Cultural side of Islam by Pickthall, the first British Muslim

  68. Gab T Jay

    June 20, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    Religion has no boundaries so everyone has a right of freedom to express and share their own feelings and beliefs….

  69. Abdul Alim

    June 20, 2013 at 8:30 pm

    Calling established well known parts of history as lies to satisfy oneself is the greatest lie of all. If this is how you wish to research truth, then please keep doing this until you can get out of this dark trap. May the Lord God of Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them) have mercy on your soul.

  70. Aleksandra

    June 20, 2013 at 8:37 pm

    Mr Zia, how will you explain then the muslim Tatars living in Poland without any disturbances from the beginning of the XIV century, throughout all these ages, till now…?
    Yes, there were wars in Europe, as everywhere else, for lots of reasons mainly political, but there was freedom of religion all this time too.

  71. Aleksandra

    June 20, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    @ Abdul Alim
    how can ANY prophet in the world have MERCY on my soul…? salvation is the attribute of God only, you are going far too far in your worshipping of PEOPLE

  72. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    June 20, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    Aleksandra, you speak like a true Muslim!

  73. Aleksandra

    June 20, 2013 at 10:25 pm

    @ Abdul Alim
    I apologize, I misread your comment – you did say “May Lord… have mercy”

    @ Rafiq
    true muslims I know worship Muhammad, noone is even allowed to ask questions about him, let alone contesting anything he said or did… whatever it was – they have to follow step by step… without any critical thinking, as if he was GOD

    I try to speak and live as a true christian though, and worship God only, none of his prophets

  74. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    June 21, 2013 at 12:53 am

    Dear Aleksandra

    You said you worship God only. Do you believe in Trinity?

    Muslims do not worship Muhammad they only love him, you are substituting one meaning of worship that is ‘adoration’ with its literal meaning.

    Peace.

  75. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    June 21, 2013 at 8:27 am

    Aleksandra: strange, I do not know any Muslim that ‘worships’ the Prophet (peace be on him), respect, yes.

  76. Kyle

    July 15, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    This is interesting, thanks for posting. The author seems to respect these passages taken from the Injil – so much so that he is using them to build his case. I wonder, does the author respect the rest of the Injil? For example, would he give the same respect to passages from the same Gospel he is quoting from? Such as:

    Mark 8:31 ‘And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again.’

    Mark 9:31 ‘…for he was teaching his disciples, saying to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him. And when he is killed, after three days he will rise.”’

    These are direct quotes from Jesus. Do these passages get the same respect?

    Thanks!

  77. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 16, 2013 at 11:10 pm

    Reply to Kyle:
    We Ahmadi Muslims give due respect to the holy Bible even though we know that there has been much additions and subtractions in Bible by human hands. We also know that the Christians do not give any respect to the Quran. So there is no balanced approach in matters of respect.

    The important point raised by Kyle from the Gospel of Mark is about death of Jesus (On cross, of course). Kyle wants to point to the Muslims that Jesus died. Kyle wants Muslims to believe that Jesus had died on the Cross.

    I am sorry. It is not possible for the following reasons:
    1. The enemies of Jesus wanted to kill him on the cross. We Muslims believe that they did not succeed in killing Jesus on the cross. Why are Christians so much interested to kill Jesus on Cross? He suffered much on the Cross. What harm is there if he did not die?

    2. Our book (The Quran) tells us that prayer of Jesus in the Garden, before arrest, was accepted. God informed Jesus that he will not die on the Cross but he will die a natural, peaceful, respectable death. So we Muslims can never believe that Jesus died on the Cross.

    3. Death on the Cross is well known according to the Bible OT as a cursed death. We Muslims do not believe that Jesus was a cursed person. That is a point in our favor and in favor of Jesus a.s.

    4. The charge against Jesus was blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy according to the Bible OT is stoning to death, and not Crucifixion. Will Kyle kindly tell me why the elders of the Jews were adamant to kill Jesus on the Cross? It was to prove that he is a cursed (false) person. That was a bad plot against Jesus.

    5. What I cannot understand is Christians consider Jesus as God (or god). Then they believe that the god dies too. That is impossible. They can make a choice ( i.e. decide) is he a god? or an ordinary man? If Jesus is just a man (a pious person) then he can die. A God cannot die.

    6. In the original article, 65 reasons have been given to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross. Naturally, proofs had to be given from the Bible to suit the Christian friends. They do not believe in the Quran. So most proofs had to come from the Bible NT. And Kyle wants us to believe in the whole of Bible. It is not necessary to do that if there are clear difficulties.

    7. Even if Jesus said what he said that he will be handed over to the elders and he will be killed, it is perfectly alright. Jesus was right what he told his followers because that is what he knew and that was going to happen.
    When he was talking to his followers, he did not know that he will be saved (miraculously). He was sure that he will be killed. He was not afraid of death. But he did not want to die on the Cross.

    That is why he prayed in the garden before arrest, to avoid death on the Cross. He beseeched God Almighty to save him from the death on the Cross. God Almighty accepted his prayer. An angel visited him and comforted him and informed him that his prayer was accepted. He will not die on the Cross.

    After that Jesus did not say to his followers that he will be killed. He was sure that he will be saved.
    When on the Cross all things appeared to go wrong, Jesus reminded God Almighty, about his promise to save him, in the words: Eli, Eli, Lama sabaqatani? “O My Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?”

    We Muslims are doing what is right, by giving due respect to the Bible, as much as can be done.

  78. R.J.Chandra Sehar

    July 17, 2013 at 3:06 pm

    After going through all the above postings one way I am very happy to say that Muslim brothers are reading the Holy Bible regularly and on the other way this made me to remember a story which I read during my school years. And it was about some Blind men who wanted to see an Elephant. When one of the blind men touched the elephant’s proboscis he thought that Oh this is the elephant. Then another one who touched the ear was thinking that oh elephant is like our ears. Again another blind who touched the leg was thinking that oh the elephant is like the legs. Like wise all the blinds who touched each parts of the elephant were thinking that oh this is elephant. Finally every one came to know that no one find the appearance of the elephant exactly because they all were blind. Hope now that all the brothers must have understood about the contents of the story. I pray to God to open everyone’s eyes so everyone can read the Holy Bible and understand about its teachings like promises, prophecies,crucifixion, commandments, Salvation, repentance,Baptism,anointment of Holy Spirit, communion, worship, heaven and hell etc. Holy Bible is like ocean and no one can sail on it easily. Jesus Christ,Yesterday,Today and Tomorrow He never CHANGES. May God our Lord JESUS CHRIST bless all our brethren.

  79. Zia H. Shah MD - Twitter: @ZiahShah1

    July 17, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Dear Chandra

    Thanks for your comment. But, tell me something, why do you discriminate so much between Jesus, may peace be on him and the Holy Ghost.

    Must Christians seem to obsess over Jesus and ignore the Holy Ghost, why is that? Oh one more thing, why is it that Jesus keeps praying to God the Father in the Gospels but ignores Holy Ghost, as well?

    If the Holy Spirit is a Person of His Own, Then Why Isn’t He Sitting on Heaven’s Big Throne?

  80. Marie Devine

    July 23, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    There is one reason to believe that according to man’s understanding of death, Jesus did die on the cross; God had said that it would happen in prophecies throughout the Torah and Prophets and in many cultures.

    According to God’s understanding, Jesus could not die; He was the Son of God, the Word of God in flesh. The Word of God cannot die.

    Revelation 1:18
    I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    The Qur’an confirms the Bible in 600+AD; Muslims would have translated it into Arabic etc. and they would not be able to claim it has been changed. The primary message through the Prophet Muhammad was, “Say O People of the Scripture, you stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and the Gospel and all God has sent down to you.” Al-Ma’iday 5:68, 69; 5:43-51 – judge by Torah. 42:14-16

    Sabbath commandment means to follow Torah, leave work on Friday, because Saturday is the Lord’s day of no work. The blessings of peace are for obedience and belief. Muslims have misinterpreted what was given in the Qur’an and the sorrow on mankind are shown on those who call themselves believers in many religions. All holy books, including the Gospel, guide to following all God’s commandments. Peace is available. Happy Ramadan, God bless you with courage and truth.

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  82. Marie Devine

    July 26, 2013 at 9:17 am

    Marie Devine • Dear Adnan, I’m sorry if you think I misquoted or half quoted Qur’an teaching; I will be more precise. My Qur’an is from Ahmadiyya Movement of Islam, Arabic-English translation 1960 which was given to me by an imam at the mosque on Mount Carmel in 1996.

    This is very important subject for Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. My understanding is that when Mahdi comes, or the promised messenger in Malachi 4, he will fulfill the message of Jesus, and Moses which Prophet Muhammad confirmed. That would make that message the fore—runner of Messiah because Acts 3:19-21 says, Jesus comes after restoring God’s word:

    Acts 3:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Qur’an 5:68, 69:
    O Messenger! Convey to the people what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou do it not, thou hast not conveyed His Message at all. And Allah will protect thee from men. Surely, Allah guides not the disbelieving people.

    :69 Say, ‘O People of the Book! You stand on nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and what has now been sent down to you from your Lord.’ And surely, what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief; so grieve not for the disbelieving people.

    Though Muhammad came in 600+AD, that message agrees with Jesus-Isa’ message in agreement with Moses: “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 8:3, 4:2

    What you said regarding “followers of both books have interpolated verses of their books, changed the meanings” does not mean they changed the words in the Bible, or God would have guided Muhammad differently, but their practice was even as it was in Jesus’ time different from what the Scriptures commanded, and also as it is in our time.
    Four times in the Qur’an God says, No one change His word.

    My belief according to what I witness from Islam, is they also have ignored what is written; but when they take that “rightly guided message” written in the Bible, as Muhammad was commanded to convey, then they will lead the world into “submission to the will of God” which is what Islam means. It would be the cleansed Islam, the cleansed Judaism, the cleansed Christianity… even the expectation of world religions, one understanding for all who choose to accept it.
    Ma Salam

  83. Marie Devine

    July 26, 2013 at 9:25 am

    2 days ago:
    Dear Adnan, peace be upon you also. The blood of all people come from the father. Qur’an agrees that Jesus-Isa was virgin birth; that means the blood was Father God’s sinless blood. God’s word is also sinless. It was Father God, Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob who shed His blood on Calvary. Jesus was the container who chose to only do the will and word of God, sacrificing the life he could have had (as a professional speaker, carpenter, etc. making a lot of money, having a family and fine home etc.).

    Jesus sacrificed His life to tell us that God is true to His word even in the most horrific prophecies, including crucifixion. Muhammad was a container and all prophets; and all of us are to be the kind of container that Jesus-Isa was, sacrificing our search for riches and honors and possessions and make our full purpose to fulfill and spread the word of God to bring in His Kingdom laws… Qur’an says that is Torah, not Sharia. (5:43-51)

    The blood on Calvary was shed for the forgiveness of sins when we ask forgiveness and turn to God’s word in truth. The life of Jesus shows our way of salvation, to save us from enslaving and destroying ourselves by our own pursuits.

    My humble suggestion for all faiths is to put aside the designation of Christian or Jew or Muslim from discussions of the word of God so you are not deceived by those who think they are true, but do not follow in truth, but according to their leaders. In the same way, the Islam of today cannot overtake the world; it is not truly submitted to the word of God, since the Qur’an is clear throughout, not to be divided between Moses and Jesus, Torah or Gospel. Qur’an says to fight by means of Qur’an; this is the fight; peacefully, in love, turning all back to the whole Bible; through Muhammad and others, God confirmed it. Only love overcomes evil; it is the law of God, very clear in the Gospel.

    The prophet Muhammad was a messenger to primarily Christians and Jews who, like now, only followed part of the Bible. The Mahdi, the Christ of God, the messenger that comes will only come with the message, Repent, follow what is written; that means the whole Bible. When we honor God in truth, the Kingdom of God within us will be manifest for the world to see, and for us to see; and prophecy will be fulfilled which says, “For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” Isaiah 54:5
    See Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28-30
    Exodus 20, Leviticus 23, Deuteronomy 4:2, Matthew 4:4, Luke 16:31
    Qur’an, Al-Ma’idah 5:68, 69; 42:14-16; 5:43-51;
    Ma Salam

  84. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    July 26, 2013 at 12:06 pm

    Dear Marie,

    Since Original Sin started with Adam and Eve, Mary the mother or Jesus, was also sinful since she had Adam and Eve’s blood. Jesus had no father but his Mary’s blood was contaminated with sin from his great great grandfather/grandmother Adam/Eve and Mary’s blood was in Jesus as we all know hence he must also be sinful! Who is going to save him?

    If not having a father makes someone worthy to be son of God or sinless, then Adam who had neither a father or a mother is more entitled to these titles i.e. son of God or sinless. Definitely not Jesus.

    Although, I enjoy the comments posted but I haven’t seen any Christian friends addressing the 65 reasons logically and they are diverting from the subject matter. Something must be bothering them! If you can’t defend your belief with reasons do you really believe in anything?

    May Allah shield His Unity from ignorance and false belief.

  85. Kristin

    July 26, 2013 at 3:11 pm

    Jesus did die on the cross and he rose three days later. Source: The Bible

  86. JOSHUA

    July 27, 2013 at 10:40 am

    … JESUS IS A MIRACLE. . RIGHT FROM CONCEPTION HE WAS DIFFERENT. .
    I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE SON OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. . AND HE DIED SO I WOULDN’T DIE ETERNA
    LLY AND HE ROSE SO I BELIEVE I WILL RISE AGAIN AFTER I DIE. SIMPLE!
    TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.. AND NOTHING NOR WHAT SOME SCHOLAR THINKS CAN CHANGE WHAT I HAVE EXPERIENCED WITH MY JESUS.

  87. Aleksandra

    July 27, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    We Christians CAN defend our beliefs, we use the Bible and the belief of the church from the VERY BEGINNING, captured in early apologetics scriptures. You claim, however (not sure on what basis though) that the source is corrupted. Hence the discussion is a vicious circle. You do not approve our argument as you discard the credibility of the source.
    Funny that you use the same source to prove YOUR point of view. Very significant.
    I would never quote a single word of a source that I would believe deeply has been corrupted…

    What you do here is a wishful thinking, either you believe the Bible or not. Bible has been analysed critically MANY TIMES and all researchers confirm its authenticity, there are number of sources – very early ones – confirming the message from the Bible. I recommend you read the Ambrosius and other fathers of church. Unlike Quran, it is not only the Bible that talks about itself, there is a whole historical context it is deeply immersed in and compatible with. While Quran talks about people and places not known to anything other that the Quran… (but this is an entirely different discussion)

  88. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 27, 2013 at 10:51 pm

    Every one of us is free to believe what he/she likes. i wish that Christians and Jews had the same respect for Muhammad as the Muslims have for Jacob, Moses and Jesus (a.s.) The Quran tells us that they were the pious leaders (prophets).

    I had a problem with a Christian friend. He did not respect Muhammad at all. At the same time he was annoyed with me because I called Jesus a prophet of God. He was annoyed because I did not consider Jesus as a God. I was surprised at that imbalance.

    I knew that in BibleNT it was written that people considered Jesus as a prophet. They were not wrong. Many good examples have been given in above posts that there are internal contradictions in Church teachings. Considering Jesus as god (against any proof from gospels) and then believing that he died, i.e. a god to prays to another God and dies also is not easy to believe. Muslims have no problem if Christians are happy with such belief.

    Then believing in three gods and One God at same time, and believing in a man god, it is difficult. Muslims belief is as in Torah i.e. Your God is One.

    I wish some one please inform me, from where the Church got the idea of three Gods i.e. Trinity. Kindly give some news.

    We Ahmadi Muslims want the Jews and the Christians to be good Jews and Christians. Likewise we want the Muslims to be good Muslims. Peace, love and liberty will be helpful in bridging the gaps.

    The topic of the present discussion is that Jesus (a.s.) did not die on the cross. He prayed to God to save him and He was saved miraculously. Even though much of BibleNt has been amended (daily) and there is no original bible available, yet the present BibleNT does not support the beliefs of the Church, such as ” He was God”, “He was begotten (literal) son of God”, ” There are Three Gods in One and One God in three”, “Jesus was the only sinless person”…

    All these cannot be proved even by the much amended Bible that we have in our hands today.
    Jesus was a Jew, son of a Jew, from the Jews, for the Jews. The elders of the Jews did not accept him even though he was accepted by many Jews. He was for the Jews and he did not want to start a new faith at all. He did not want to start a new religion. But Allah gave him respect and did not want him to die away in oblivion. Allah promised him to make him a sign for all the world (as mentioned in the Quran, chapter 19). So Allah did that and Jesus (a.s.) lives today.

  89. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    July 27, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    There is of course a reason why Muslims respect Jesus and Christians have problems respecting Mohammad (peace be on him). In the Qur’an Jesus is mentioned many times and we sort of ‘have to’ respect him, while the Christians are not aware that Mohammad (peace be on him) is mentioned in the bible.

  90. Aleksandra

    July 27, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    @ Ghulam: You say christians don’t respect Muslims. In which christian country we don’t allow building mosques or introduce blasphemy laws?
    Do we kill our christian brothers or sisters for converting to islam?

    Please, be honest here. Respect for other faiths is NOT a respect for the object of their belief (we do not believe Mohammad was blessed, fullstop) but the respect other believers as PEOPLE (so you are free to believe in Mohammad and proclaim it). We christians allow everyone practice their beliefs without worshipping the same thing. Tolerance for others does not mean the same beliefs.
    I tolerate hindus too, not believing in Ganesh or Kali…

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  92. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 28, 2013 at 2:21 am

    @Aleksandra: I did not say “Christians don’t respect Muslims”. Please check. Some Christians are quite peaceful loving persons.

    You are right that western governments are sensible in accommodating people of all faiths, Hindus, Muslims, Jews,Christians. Credit goes to the secular governments.

  93. Jamie Lee Davis

    July 28, 2013 at 6:01 am

    I just found TMT today and I am quite impressed. This article “65 Reasons…” is compelling, well researched, and well reasoned. I’m thankful the article has been supported by commentary for over a year!

    I am thankful that the Muslim author of this article has educated me, a formally Christian atheist.

  94. John

    July 31, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    Interesting that you feel you can use the bible to disprove it, when you lack understanding of the content and have your own bias.

    I suggest if you are really seeking the truth, that you ask Jesus to reveal himself, my friend …. Jesus died on that cross for you so you could have a relationship with your maker. You might be surprised what will happen if you open your heart to Jesus rather then debating about him.

    This may help an honest search of the facts, there is an excellent short book called “more than a carpenter by Josh Mcdowell which is available for free download, it presents a case in context by someone who try to rubbish the Christian faith, in the end the Author discovered and accepted Christ as his Lord and Saviour. http://www.gobookee.net/more-than-a-carpenter/

    I must commend you if you are genuinely searching for answers, God made us with a brain to ask questions however I pray that you would reflect from your heart what you wish to achieve from this.

    The Romans were a ruthless people, life was very cheap and your arguments are simply arguments, you were not there. No one is forcing you to believe it is your choice to accept it or reject it.
    The bible states 1 cor1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”

    I pray that you might consider being sincere with Jesus and you be surprised. The bible promises that if you draw near to God then HE will draw near to you.

  95. John

    July 31, 2013 at 11:35 pm

    In response to ” 7. Jesus traveled 70 miles on foot to Galilee, met only his close friends, did not appear in public because he was a condemned man.
    The best answer was to travel towards east to get out of the jurisdiction of the Roman empire as quickly as possible. (Wassalam.)”

    This is very funny, you can you be serious or trying to be logical? Jesus was whipped and nailed to a cross, then poked with a spear as starters and now you believe he was able to escape and walk 70 miles on foot. It highlights your bias against the Gospels and I suggest reading the book previously mentioned above and take a step of faith and ask Jesus to reveal himself thru his word. Blessings

  96. Zia Shah

    August 1, 2013 at 12:17 am

    Jesus whipping is in the imagination of indoctrinated Christians or a side effect of watching Mel Gibson’s the Passion of the Christ movie. It has perhaps been gradually woven into history over time. If you read the earliest Gospel, which is the Gospel of Mark, the King James version reads, telling us that he was hit with a reed, which means a bush:

    And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band. And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, and began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. (Mark 15:16-20)

    By the time we reach the New International Version the reed has become a staff:

    The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers. They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him out to crucify him. (Mark 15:16-20)

    Read this account in other Gospels to see, how story changes. Can we base a religion on 2000 years old stories, which have been changing in even in recent centuries, right in front of our eyes?

    In Gospel of Matthew also ‘reed’ in King James version has been changed to ‘staff’ in New International version in chapter 27.

    Please note that whatever this whipping was, Jesus was able to carry his cross after this process, so why is his surviving three hours on the cross after that such a stretch that we need to invoke the most extraordinary resurrection, rather than resuscitation? One never seen otherwise in human history and the other seen every day in modern hospitals. You do the math. To me two plus two is four not five!

  97. hassan khan

    August 2, 2013 at 7:58 pm

    After reading 65 questions about the crucification of Jesus any body can understand that the discussion is totally based on logic, historic facts( including Gospel ) and at this time any conclusive wisdom by any sensible educated man.
    But when you read all the responses you can clearly see the responses from Christian friends are total faith based. We as civilized people respect their faith and vision under its influence. Still I can say that they do not see any logic or reality in this case or even common sense. At this time religious Christians who are directly or indirectly attached to church authorities have no choice but to believe this concept of solvation, trinity and sacrifice of no sense.
    At present western countries Christian population is living a life style has no room for any God authority. Jesus is the only hope for them that if there is any life after death they will go to heaven due to Jesus sacrifice. Whether he understand it or not. He does not have time to follow living style of righteous ones. Why bother praying five times a day, no drinking, faithful to your marriage, no gambling, no interest system and no free sex society.
    They will just bring some meaningless quotation from Gospel in front of all arguments.
    Who cares that Pilot the judge was friendly toward Jesus and still his soldiers beating Jesus mercilessly with out any reason just to please Jewish preachers according to MelGibson a drunk Holliwood movie maker.
    These Christian like their evangelist Pat Robertson believe more on Holly Wood than common sense.
    At this time all churches including Vetican are multitrillion dollar business. So basically very few sensible people will look at this.
    While majority of the people of world will not bother to look at this discussion. They are too busy with their issues of money and extreme poverty.
    So you can try but it is in the hands of God to show them the truth.

  98. frank mcmanus

    August 3, 2013 at 11:22 am

    this discussion and the 65 reasons are a waste of time since no one can prove or disprove the bible. The basis of christian life is believing without seeing. I believe Jesus was crucified,died and rose from the dead. my belief in this has been for the last two years, since the holy spirit came into my heart. So no matter the discussion or theories nothing will cahnge what i know

  99. Zia Shah

    August 3, 2013 at 11:36 am

    Dear Frank, but, why do not you also believe that John F Kennedy was also crucified along his brother Robert Kennedy, one head up and the other head down? They died side by side and will rise three centuries from now.

    They died for all the non-Christians.

    So, now the loving God has forgiven everyone!

  100. Aleksandra

    August 3, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Zia Shah, why are you mocking a reasonable answer? …

    There are no witnesses of such death of Kennedys, while there are witnesses of the death of resurrection of Jesus. All in the Bible, the New Testament. As Mr Frank says, there is no way anyone can prove the events that happened, or believe in them in heart, the text itself has been historically proven without doubts. Nothing has been changed in the Bible we know today.

    NB Nothing legitimises using one part freely and discarding another. If you claim the text has been distorted, how do you know WHICH ONE HAS…?

    Everything written above does not prove anything, just that the author has a theory and finds random quotes to confirm it, taking them out of context and not understanding anything of the 270 prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament, nor the human nature of Jesus (so He was afraid too as he was A MAN… same flesh and blood as we are, and God’s dignity in the same time… a mystery, yes, but the historical fact described in the Bible by the witnesses, starting with the gospel of John 1.14 – the same Bible you quote above – “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”)

  101. Zia Shah

    August 3, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    I am not mocking, I was just making a point for my brother Frank that faith cannot be blind and has to be based on truths, which are supported by reasons.

    The witnesses that you present are from stories of 2000 years ago. It is not that we are getting first hand account. None of the Gospel writers of the canonical Gospels were eye witnesses. I am afraid that your evidence is hearsay, at best, not worthy of basing a religion on.

    Logically one should accept that extraordinary claims require extra ordinary proofs, which are not forth coming, for death and resurrection of Jesus, may peace be on him.

    Please consider that benefit of any doubt should go to resuscitation, which we see on an every day basis in hospitals and not to resurrection, which none of us has every witnessed.

    Peace.

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  103. kbb

    August 11, 2013 at 6:36 pm

    Point 31 the verse from Mark 14:36 is only partially quoted as other verses in these points are also. Mark 14:36 And He said “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless NOT WHAT I WILL, BUT WHAT YOU WILL. Christ’ spirit was willing but his flesh was weak, His Spirit is of God which is holy and perfect, but His flesh is of this world and man, fearful and weak. But through His Spirit flesh is overcome and the Father’s will is done.

  104. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    August 12, 2013 at 12:46 am

    If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?

  105. Aleksandra

    August 13, 2013 at 7:34 am

    @Rafiq: This is the mystery of the Trinity – they are three different persons, but one God… There are several verses in the Bible showing it, starting from the baptism in Jordan when the Holy Trinity was revealed for the first time.
    Jesus was the same flesh and blood as we are, not half-man only.
    Nevertheless one needs faith to see it this way, there is no way in the world that can ‘prove’ it… pretty much in the same way one must believe that Gabriel came to Mohammad, as noone can actually ‘prove’ it logically. Our faith in the Trinity bases on the Bible.

  106. Christopher Michael Isaac Emmanuel

    August 13, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    The Koran says “Lakum Deenakum Walle Yadeen.” For you your religion and for me my religion. My Christian brothers dont argue with unbelievers llike the Ahmadies lest you become like them. Despite the Koran speaking of resurrection all the time but these Ahmadies do not believe either in the death nor in the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is the greatest proof that resurrection is a reality but the Ahmadies are bent upon disproving the Koran. Leave them alone as to argue with them is to dilute your own beliefs.

    Chris Mike, New Delhi, 14/07/13

  107. Marie Devine

    August 14, 2013 at 1:04 pm

    Dear Christopher, Jesus-Isa came to save the lost. When we cut off another religion because of what we think they believe, we cut ourselves off from correction that may be in our understanding and we have no power to help cleanse understanding of our Qur’an and the Bible. I never got the impression they are trying to disprove the Qur’an.

    The primary message of the Qur’an is to follow the Torah and Gospel. Torah contains Ten Commandments written in stone. We all need correction to follow the Sabbaths of no work commanded as written, the 7th day; of Exodus 20:8-11, and Sabbaths of no work around God’s commanded memorial feasts of Leviticus 23. Read them and decide if you want to believe God or your religious leaders who have passed down errors from long ago. I speak to people of all religions, because there is only one God and if He spoke words to you; they are in agreement with the Bible.
    Isaiah 8:20 New King James Version (NKJV)(Biblegateway.com-many languages)
    20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

  108. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    August 15, 2013 at 7:41 am

    Marie Devine wrote “The primary message of the Qur’an is to follow the Torah and Gospel” is absolutely incorrect. Quran is Final and Perfect Message for all of mankind. Quran urges Muslims ONLY to accept the teachings of Gospel and Torah that DOES NOT contradict its message. So Muslims utilize Quran, the Perfect and Final Divine Scripture, as a tool to valide and accept the portions of Gospel and Torah and rejects those portions that contradicts the Quranic message or teachings.

    Muslims are NOT blind followers they are exhorted by Quran to reflect on the creations of God and think over its messages, laws and injunction as it provides ample reason and examples as to why Quranic messages should be followed. See examples below:

    No incongruity canst thou see in the creation of the Gracious God. Then look again: Seest thou any flaw? [Holy Quran 67:4]

    And no soul can believe except by the permission of Allah. And He makes His wrath descend on those who will not use their reason.[10:101]

    And He has pressed into service for you the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; and the stars too have been pressed into service by His command. Surely, in that are Signs for a people who make use of their reason. [16:13]

    And what reason have I that I should not worship Him Who has created me, and unto Whom you will be brought back? [36:23]

    That is because they are a people who are devoid of all reason. [59:14]

    And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”, he will answer, “Holy art Thou. I could never say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is only Thou Who art the Knower of hidden things. [5:117]

    Finally, the above verse is one of the 30 verses of the Holy Quran that proves that Jesus, may God be pleased with him, died a natural death. So Muslims are urged to believe in the fact that like all human beings, Jesus died a natural death and he should be accepted and respected as a Prophet of God and no more.

  109. Christopher Michael Isaac Emmanuel

    August 16, 2013 at 6:30 am

    Jesus neither died on the Cross nor in Kashmir. He is very much alive with his Father in Heaven where he was called up by Him. This is confirmed by the very Koran by which the Ahmadies swear.
    Chris Mike, New Delhi, 16/08/13

  110. Katy McDonald

    August 17, 2013 at 4:13 am

    Jesus’ death, as the one sacrifice acceptable to God for the restoration of the broken relationship between man and God (for which mankind is entirely to blame) is at the core of the Christian faith. His bodily resurrection is never in doubt in the New Testament and the apostles never doubted it once they had met their resurrected Messiah. It was only in the following years of the early church when teaching started to appear that he was only a resurrected Spirit.

    The attempt made here to dispute the claims of the New Testament that Jesus did not actually die on the cross are highly offensive to the Christian. Jesus is the Lord of the Universe, one with Father and Spirit (yes.. one God) the Saviour of all mankind and the truth of this is made clear in the New Testament. I suggest that if those responsible for posting this article sincerely want to know the truth about God (and Jesus) they pray, asking Him to reveal himself in all his truth to them.. without presuming that what they have been brought up to believe is indeed the truth. Jesus has given me freedom, joy, peace and certain hope of eternal life with Him in heaven. He is my reason for everything I do and every choice I make in life.

    I once prayed that God would reveal the truth about himself to me after examining many different ways of thinking about Him and he lead me to open the Bible and read the wonderful story of grace. He captivated my heart and today leads me in the way of righteousness. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I do for Him but everything to do with what He has done for me, in dying as a sacrifice for my sins and rising to new life conquering the power of death and bringing eternal life to all who will believe in Him.

    I pray that you will know the joy of complete acceptance by God, that faith in His death and resurrection brings. I have. There is nothing that compares with this.

  111. Zia Shah

    August 17, 2013 at 4:35 am

    Dear Katy McDonald
    A polite discussion to find the truth should not be offensive to friendly and open minded Christians.

    Is it possible that you took the assumptions indoctrinated during your childhood to be the truth?

    Please try a simple challenge by one time Christian preacher, Dan Barker:

    Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension

  112. Katy McDonald

    August 17, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    Zia, I became a follower of Jesus as an adult having spent some time looking into what this might be and praying for God’s guidance. I was never indoctrinated as a child. Why would I read anything else about other ideas of truth and faith, when I have found the answer in Jesus.

  113. Zia Shah

    August 17, 2013 at 3:41 pm

    Katy, I am glad for you. Please also advise us about which faith were you born into.

  114. Brother Donald

    August 17, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    I would just like to know if anyone on here believes that Jesus was a Prophet or do you believe that also was a hoax as well.

  115. Zia Shah

    August 17, 2013 at 5:52 pm

    Dear Brother Donald

    Muslims may differ on many issues but they never dispute oneness of God and that there were thousands of prophets before the Prophet Muhammad, may peace be on him and that Jesus, may peace be on him, was a noble prophet, sent to the Israelites.

  116. Marie Devine

    August 17, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    Dear Brother Mirza,

    I believe you are following a religious leader who was taught by those deceived before him. All holy books point to following the law of God. Torah is the law of God through Moses. All things must agree with that because it is full of guidance “out of the mouth of God.” Prophet Muhammad was as a president’s seal to confirm the Bible; he cannot then denounce following Moses and Jesus and the Bible. If you give me the scripture to prove all things are to agree with Qur’an, we can come to correct understanding of it; for we both seek truth, I am sure.
    Biblegateway.com Isaiah 8:20, Matthew 4:4

    Isaiah 8:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    If the Qur’an is correctly written, the words “the Book” must refer to the Bible, since there was no book until after Prophet Muhammad died. The Bible has many witnesses of what God said, the Qur’an is just one more. God proves all things out of the mouth of two or three prophets. Those things which are not in agreement with the Bible have been added by evil men wanting to deceive. There will be no other witness written in another book. (Noah was not 950 years old at flood; and his three sons were with him, 8 people were saved. Abraham’s wife did not cry at news of a son, she laughed. Moses was on a mountain, not in a valley when God told him to take off his shoes.) Search Biblegateway.com or google etc.

    Quran.com, Al-Ma’idah 5:67, 68, Sahih International
    O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

    Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

    7:157, 159
    Sahih International
    7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him – it is those who will be the successful.

    7:158 Sahih International
    Say, [O Muhammad], “O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death.” So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow HIM that you may be guided.

  117. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 21, 2013 at 9:41 am

    For katy McDonald:
    It is good that you are satisfied and happy with Jesus son of Mary. We Muslims are also dedicated to him. Yo found peace in Jesus only after some searcch. Had you not taken a step, you would not have found Jesus and peace.
    You are not to stop where you are now. But further open mind study is necessary. It will not harm you. It will help and you may find other friends in Jesus.
    Please remember that they can be none other than Muslims, as per a divinely revealed book. No joke, no lie, no cheating.
    Niether the Jews nor the Hindus or Budhists will be in praise of Jesus son of Mary. It will only be Muslims.

  118. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 21, 2013 at 9:49 am

    For Brother Donald:

    There is no joke or lie. The proof is in the Quran, the divinely revealed book which is being read all over the world for the last 1400 years.

    The proof is there. You can extend your hand and see the proof of the high status of Jesus son of Mary in Quran. Of course we (same as Jews) do not believe that Jesus was god or literal, begotten son of God. He could be spiritually begotten son of God like many others. No more than that.

  119. David Fox

    August 24, 2013 at 8:19 am

    Do not lie to the children or to the people
    telling them that god came to earth
    got crucified
    and then floated up to heaven on a cloud
    after sleeping for three days in a tomb
    and being wrapped up in a shroud
    zombies running here zombies running there
    zombies running around every where
    look there is Jesus alive again
    complete with his open wound
    his beard moustache and long hair
    well you know the old saying folks
    sin now and repent at leisure
    if there is a god he will love me
    if there is no god
    he will know me
    never.

    David Fox England.

  120. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 25, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    More for Brother Donald:

    Jesus is described in the Quran as a word from God. He is described as a messenger (Rasool) and as a prophet (nabi). He is described as a sign for the mankind (Ayat al li Naas). He is a described as a Mercy from God ( Rehmat am minna). Jesus is described in the Quran as a Blessed person (Mubarak). He is described as having been given a book.

    Jesus is described before his birth as a purified young man (Ghulam an Zakiyya).
    Most of the above is found in chapter 19 of Quran.

  121. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    August 26, 2013 at 6:42 am

    Do you want your children or spouse to love you and when you are sick to leave you or ignore you?

    Do you want your children or spouse for whom you have work hard to provide a descent living to love another person who does not do anything for them?

    Love without responsibility is a hoax and love without reason is madness.

    True love should enhance our reason and sense of responsibility.

  122. Robert Hunt

    August 28, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    The (unaltered, uncorrupted) Word of God reads as follows in 1 Corinthians 15

    “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.”

    And reiterates in Galatians 1…

    “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

  123. Rahab

    August 29, 2013 at 10:56 pm

    Do what is good to others the rest of your life better than spoiling one’s faith, each person will get saved by their own faith not by your instruction. The way Islam spoils the world and taring peoples dreams show your words power. i don t think All these reasons what you have mentioned are bigger than the cruelty what your cast people making Hope it shows who is worshipping the real God. have a great day

  124. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 31, 2013 at 10:13 am

    To Robert Hunt:
    Your post of 28 August, please tell whose words you have presented. Are those the words of Jesus or some one else? Please indicate the name of that person. Then we will be wiser.

    If those are the words of Jesus himself or any friend of Jesus, they are welcome. Please inform.

  125. Pingback: Sixty Five Reasons to Believe Jesus Did Not Die on the Cross | Jesus is not alive

  126. Tina

    September 4, 2013 at 10:13 am

    Accidentaly I came across this website and this article. I find it amusing that people of this religion quesitonand scrutinise christianity and bible so much. I am a Christian and in our churches (and I have attendeded churches across many coutnries) our pastors ever discuss muslim religion being incorrect. They teach us how to respect other religions. Our new Pope washed feet for muslim prisoners and that is our leading example. That is what Jesus was about, to love each other on this earth. Sorry, maybe off the subject a bit, but needed to say this. Just have some more acceptance for others, thats all.

  127. Zia Shah

    September 4, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Tina we respect and love all Christians, especially those who read the Muslim Times and it is out of this empathy that we want to bring them to greater truth.

    You would recognize that any irrational belief holds us back.

    So, please see this academic exercise in this spirit.

    Peace!

  128. Tina

    September 4, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Hi, just to correct my initial text, I meant to say that our pastors DON’T ever discuss muslim religion as being incorrect.

    I think we will all eventually find out the truth and until then lets focus on making PEACE on this earth.

    Personally, Jesus is the saviour and he died on the cross for us.

  129. Dave Lister

    September 5, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    I just love arguments between adherents of competing (but closely related) mythology. It’s all fiction: Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Zeus, Odin. Unfortunately these competing fictions about supposedly peaceful religions have the believers killing each other. The sooner mankind walks away from belief in fictional characters the sooner peace will occur.

  130. Aleksandra

    September 5, 2013 at 11:01 pm

    Dave – right, as atheist empires never killed anyone, in Lenin and Stalin times (religion is the opium for masses!) people simply evaporated… about 100 million of them

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

  131. Aleksandra

    September 5, 2013 at 11:06 pm

    Tina – I’ve also given this comment, as I feel insulted that islam ‘apologetics’ focuses on… discrediting other religions… as if all they can do it define themselves in opposition to others.

    why is this website focused on discrediting christianity…? don’t you have enough of your own religion books & teachings to focus on them? somehow the christians are not all about “let’s prove muslims are wrong”, we cherish our faith & tradition and it is sufficient for us

    checking out the articles on this website it seems that your religion is defined by the negation of others, instead of building your case… sorry, but looks like without the christians and the Bible you would not exist…

    if your religion is TRUE it will defend itself, won’t it…? you don’t need to prove everyone else is wrong… truth comes out eventually, always… think about it.

    Why do muslims feel this constant need of questioning other people’s beliefs…?

  132. Zia Shah

    September 6, 2013 at 6:26 am

    Aleksandra thank you so much for your comment.

    Could it be that the Muslims believe reason and rationality is on their side and they want to bring it out and share it with their cousins, the Christians and the Jews?

    You said that truth eventually comes out, but, it cannot do so unless spoken of.

    Truth hidden in a closet in the basement of my home will not get across to you or other readers of the Muslim Times, unless, I share it in the Muslim Times.

  133. Aleksandra

    September 6, 2013 at 6:35 am

    Yes, but speaking truth does not mean saying “you are wrong”.

    The fact that someone is wrong says nothing about your truth, sorry to say…

    NB why aren’t you saying “Confucius was wrong”, “Buddha was wrong” or “azteks were wrong”… would it prove in any way that Muhammad indeed got his revelation…?

    No, it would not.

    Christian apologetics is focused on the Bible, on the experience of the first christians, on the witnesses and the miracles they experienced. It does not base on the fact that there was some false prophet or corrupted book and we must prove it.

  134. Zia Shah

    September 6, 2013 at 6:44 am

    See, we do not believe that Jesus, may peace be on him was wrong.

    Only Saint Paul misunderstood him and if you go by his teachings, you end up questioning all Jewish prophets, Confucius and Buddha.

    As they never told us that Jesus is coming to die for us, take it easy!

  135. Ghulam Sarwar

    September 6, 2013 at 3:26 pm

    Dear Aleksandra, please note that each religion is teaching and preaching. Preaching should be peaceful, non-abusive. The Christians come in our homes and give us a bible. They preach to us and they read out the bible for us. We are thankful.

    They say that Jesus was god. He was son of God. He was begotten son of God. And so many other things..

    They say that Jesus died on the cross. There are three gods and there is One God. i.e. Trinity.

    We are educated. We can read the bible ourselves. In so doing, we are much impressed by the actual words of Jesus, as we read in Mathew and Luke and Mark and John. We come to know that Jesus was working to improve the life of the Jews within the Jewish law. We learn that Jesus himself said that “Not a word or dot of the law will be abrogated (nullified, disregarded).” We learn that he did not want to start a new religion. We learn that Jesus even abused and rebuked the people of his time.

    But we see that Christians have abandoned the law which was supported by Jesus. Not only that, the Christians consider the law as a curse. How come?

    We have a right to respectfully present our view about all these things and we ask the Christians as how was Jesus begotten? There may be a secret meaning which we never hear from church people. In Mathew chapter one, line 1, we see, “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob….” Very respectfully we ask you the manner of begetting Jesus.

    How could there be three gods and one God at the same time. How could there be a man god? You must be having some rational answers to all those questions. Kindly present them here.

    There are many other problems. They need to be explained. Christians have given us the bibles. Now that we ask somethings, there is no need to be upset. It is all a friendly dialogue. If you are hurt or upset then Christians should not come on our doors to give us bible lessons.

    There is no disrespect. There is no wrong quotation. There is no attack on your faith. We respect and love Jesus and his mother Mary from the bottom of our heart. Prophet Muhammad and Quran has taught us to do that. We love and respect Jesus and his real friends. We do not love his enemies or those who persecuted him and his followers. We believe in One God and we do not need any Lords besides that God Almighty.

    We need peace and friendship with all Christians.

  136. Trojan

    September 6, 2013 at 5:23 pm

    Rafiq says “If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?”

    dear Rafiq, this is a typical questions Muslims like to repeat thinking that it defeats the doctrine of the Trinity…

    If you look at the doctrine of the Trinity, through the eyes of the author of the Koran, and then talk to some Christians about it, you will realize that Christians did at no time in history believed what the Koran says they do (or ever did). (This hypothesis in itself negates the Koran’s claim of a divine origin… but that is a topic for another day) However when the Koran talks of God giving birth to a son through Mary, even the Christians laugh at this concept, not only for it’s obvious error, but because it is an unfair representation of what Christians truly believe about the Trinity.

    “If God the Father and God the Son are One then Jesus was talking to himself?”

    The doctrine of the incarnation in Christian teaching is that Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, added to himself human nature and became a man.

    The Bible says that Jesus is God in flesh, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…..and the word became flesh and dwelt among us,” (John 1:1, 14); and, “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,” (Col. 2:9). Jesus, therefore, has two natures. He is both God and man.

    Jesus is completely human, but He also has a divine nature.
    As a man, Jesus needed to pray (talk to the father). When He was praying he was not praying to Himself, but to God the Father.

    My purpose here is not to try to convince you that you are wrong, but to try and explain to what Christians truly believe, and why Islam should not misrepresent Christianity, because it obviously has no clue what it (the author of the Koran) is talking about

    Cheers

  137. Zia Shah

    September 6, 2013 at 5:44 pm

    Dear Trojan a man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.

    Please think about it.

    A man cannot be God at the same time.

    To non-Christians persons and beings are the same, this is why we are called human beings.

    Three persons in one being is a mystery. Christian philosophers have called Trinity a mystery.

    So, the Christians should not try to explain. The more you explain more confusing it becomes. Christians have only one choice, to take the criticism in good humor and stay silent! Let the Muslims do the talking and see if you can understand, or choose to silently continue to believe in the mystery …

    Best wishes and peace!

  138. Trojan

    September 6, 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Zia Shah says “See, we do not believe that Jesus, may peace be on him was wrong.

    Only Saint Paul misunderstood him and if you go by his teachings, you end up questioning all Jewish prophets, Confucius and Buddha.

    As they never told us that Jesus is coming to die for us,…”

    Mr. Shah, Stop blindly believing what your mullahs preach in the mosque every Friday. You look like an educated person, put that education to some use. Do a bit of research instead of parroting what you have heard from the likes of Zakir Naik

    This was a prophecy about Christ’s death centuries before Paul.
    It is a bit lengthy, but if you have any integrity, please take the time and read it very carefully and then tell me if you still think Paul had anything to do with what Christ came to fulfil…

    Isaiah 53

    New International Version (NIV)

    53 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
    3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
    Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
    4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
    11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
    by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
    because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Cheers!

  139. Trojan

    September 6, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    Zia says “Dear Trojan a man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.

    Please think about it.

    A man cannot be God at the same time”

    Thanks for your response dear Zia, and I totally agree with your premise, but now look deeper into what you just said ” MAN CANNOT BE….”
    You see I never once said, it was the humanity of Jesus that became God, but it was God who took on humanity, and you must agree that all things are possible with God. Even the Koran submits to this fact. So if this is God’s plan, who are we as humans to defy, deny or ridicule it?

    Cheers mate … I hope we can continue to discuss.

  140. Zia Shah

    September 6, 2013 at 6:02 pm

    Trojan instead of changing the topic, please first respond to my comment about Trinity above.

    As regards finding Christian parallels or lack there of in other religions, let me say a few words.

    I know the Christians try to find prophecies for their understanding of Jesus in the Old Testament.

    But, if we take a comprehensive view and not lose the forest, as we examine a tree, in examining a couple of references, we realize that the Jews for 2000 years were devout worshipers of One God, without having heard anything about Jesus. In this sense Jesus, may peace be on him, did not add anything to pure Monotheism of One God.

    Additionally, we do not hear of any suicidal mission for redemption of human race in other religious traditions of Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism or Zoroastrianism.

    As regards your reference of Isaiah 53, I will write a separate article, in due course of time.

    Please note that I am critical of Zakir Nayik, for many of his irrational ideas about freedom of religion and theistic evolution and do not remember ever quoting him. I find that his only strength is a good memory, which is not much in need, in this age of Google and Bing. What we need are scholars with critical thinking and ability to rectify the mistakes of the past and willingness to change, rather than bask in cheap popularity.

    Incidentally, I do respect his teacher, Ahmad Deedat.

  141. Trojan

    September 6, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    Zia, I see what you are doing now… You accuse Paul of inventing Christ’s sacrifice, yet when I negate your claims you try and tiptoe around the tulips, but fail to see admit you were wrong.
    You may write volumes to try and negate Isaiah 53, but you will still be wrong, because again you are viewing it with doubt. You have already made up your mind what the conclusion is, so it is easy to write a critical article about it.

    I am glad you are wise enough to see Naik is a fraud, but many Muslims will slip into many of the arguments that Niaks brings up to ridicule Christianity. So what makes them any different from Niak?

    Anyway It was nice talking to you. I wish more Muslims were open to discussion like this, however if you wish to continue discussing with me you have to come here with an open mind.

    It’s late GTG

    Cheers

  142. Zia Shah

    September 6, 2013 at 6:22 pm

    Trojan, God is All Powerful, but, not contradictory. He has revealed His attributes in the Bible and the Quran and I am sorry to say that the Christian dogma are against the dignity of God that we find in His Scriptures.

    Thomas Paine, one of the Founding Fathers of America, wrote about vicarious atonement, knocking it out in a single paragraph:

    From the time I was capable of conceiving an idea, and acting upon it by reflection, I either doubted the truth of the Christian system, or thought it to be a strange affair; I scarcely knew which it was: but I well remember, when about seven or eight years of age, hearing a sermon read by a relation of mine, who was a great devotee of the church, upon the subject of what is called Redemption by the death of the Son of God. After the sermon was ended, I went into the garden, and as I was going down the garden steps (for I perfectly recollect the spot) I revolted at the recollection of what I had heard, and thought to myself that it was making God Almighty act like a passionate man, that killed his son, when he could not revenge himself any other way; and as I was sure a man would be hanged that did such a thing, I could not see for what purpose they preached such sermons. This was not one of those kind of thoughts that had anything in it of childish levity; it was to me a serious reflection, arising from the idea I had that God was too good to do such an action, and also too almighty to be under any necessity of doing it. I believe in the same manner to this moment; and I moreover believe, that any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system.

    He describes the alleged Fall of man in the following words, exposing the irrationality of the idea:

    The Christian Mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the Garden of Eden, in the shape of a snake or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no way surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tête-à-tête is that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind. After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the Church Mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit: or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain), or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women and doing more mischief. But instead of this they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole—the secret of which is that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology? Having thus made an insurrection and a battle in heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded—put Satan into the pit—let him out again—gave him a triumph over the whole creation—damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, these Christian Mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together. They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and Man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing had eaten an apple.

    A woman, who was not even the first woman, ate an apple and the whole of mankind is condemned for millennia, yet the God of Christianity is allegedly more loving than that of Islam or Judaism?

    Reference: Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

    Trojan, enough discussion here in this post between two of us. We will meet again in some other post in a few days. Peace!

  143. Aleksandra

    September 6, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    “man cannot be a rock and an apple at the same time. Rocks, apples and humans are different things.

    Please think about it.

    A man cannot be God at the same time”

    Yes, he can. Like water can be water, or ice or steam. The same substance, three different physical bodies.

    NB don’t rey to understand this mystery with brain, it is not possible. God is beyound our human brain. Can you explain with logic the fact that angels exist and revealed themselevs in the cave to Mohammad? NO. You trust witness and the fruits (somehow you do, your right, I don’t trust this witness nor his fruits)

    We trust the word from the Bible and the witnesses, who saw Jesus before death and after resurrection (all New Testament) – who you don’t trust

    But this is not the question of logic or brain, only faith. SO in your own interest focus on yours, not on trying to provie others wrong

  144. Zia Shah

    September 7, 2013 at 1:42 am

    Dear Aleksandra, the Gospel writers were not eye-witnesses, so you are basing a very counter-intuitive religion, on hearsay evidence from 2000 years ago.

    Please think about it.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

    For a moment just think about the possibility, could the Christian dogma be wrong and is there a better truth out there and then weigh pros and cons.

    Otherwise, it becomes a constant reassertion.

    Peace!

  145. Trojan

    September 7, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    Zia says..”the Gospel writers were not eye-witnesses, so you are basing a very counter-intuitive religion, on hearsay evidence from 2000 years ago…”

    Zia, The same can be said about the Koran… I can show you ample of proof that the material found in the Koran was borrowed from various sources available at the time…. should you not be following the same reasoning?

    Zia says..” Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs….”

    Most definitely, so let us apply that to the Koran, Muslims claim it to be the word of God Verbatim…. This is a major claim we require some extraordinary proofs for such an extraordinary claim. So far Muslims have fallen short.

    Zia says…”For a moment just think about the possibility, could the Christian dogma be wrong and is there a better truth out there..”

    If you are implying that Islam is that truth, then you yourself have not looked outside the box…

  146. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 8, 2013 at 10:58 am

    I am amazed and muted to see and read such pathetic, irrational and insane replies and comments ….just wondering that in 21st century of information such views still exist….what a world we are living……
    Jesus is dead its proved from biblical & historical accounts and now scientifically as well….its waste of time to discuss this matter. What should be discussed is what is the future of Christianity in wake of present circumstances when he should have been descended back but he has been taking overtime more than 1 century.

  147. ken

    September 10, 2013 at 1:45 am

    Guess you are confusing yourself while trying to convince,You cant argue that we christians are based on faith and believing for proof and you muslims are based on real facts for proof whereas you are speaking all good done by God and His work unto the world of which am very sure none neither you has ever seen God but only by faith and believe in His work and existence.So stop argueing on faith as an excption. I BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS AS HIS SON,MY SAVIOUR WHO DIED FOR MY SINS.
    These 65 prooves are based on human thinking ofwhich even the writers of the bible never used their own thinking but they were guided by the holy spirit.
    (LET ME REASON LIKE YOU) Again even personally in your own thinking and argueing it out,how dare comfortably can you argue out jesus never died after all that toture and again being pierced and bleeding that much and for all that long and with no medical attendance,how can a human being survive all this???? and still walk 70 miles?? cumon! STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE!!

  148. Zia Shah

    September 10, 2013 at 3:57 am

    The torture before crucifixion has been exaggerated in recent years. Here is the account of the Gospel of Mark from King James Version, which gives a more realistic picture:

    And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, and began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. (Mark 15:17-20)

    In the Gospel of Luke there is no torture between the verdict and crucifixion.

    Dear Ken, is it possible that you read all of the above with your pre-conceived ideas, otherwise there is plenty in here, to make you think out of the box.

    As readers we should always follow Sir Francis Bacon’s advice, “Read not to contradict … but to weigh and consider.”

    Otherwise, we remain as ignorant after reading something as we were before reading it.

  149. Mike Wyatt

    September 12, 2013 at 7:19 am

    Get over it. This is our faith. Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.

    Just keep it simple.

  150. Mike Wyatt

    September 12, 2013 at 7:20 am

    You only need one reason.

  151. Zia Shah

    September 12, 2013 at 8:07 am

    So did Moses, Buddha, Krishna and John the Baptist? They rose from the dead, I know for certain, as I have perfect faith in this!

  152. Mike Wyatt

    September 12, 2013 at 9:01 am

    Good on you Zia you keep on believing what you want to believe. Do you believe in Tinkerbell the Fairy also rising from the dead as well? Why do you feel the need to kick up a big dust storm and add to a confused state of mind. Remember your point of view is none of my business nor is it the business of 1.25 billion other Christians.

    Jesus Died and rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father. Simple articles of faith that I affirm every day in my life.

  153. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 12, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Keep believing a dead god who could not save himself from an accursed death on cross.

  154. Mike Wyatt

    September 13, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Seems this feed has gone dead.

    Maybe Zia has already risen from the dead along with Mirza Ghulam Rabbi the poster and the Author: Imam I. H. Kauser.

    When you push versions of the truth you eventually run out of wind for your sail.

    The Truth is Jesus Died and rose from the dead and for 40 days he mingled with the apostles before He ascended to Heaven to be with His Father. No matter how much hollow discourse you throw up at the One Reason for the existence of Christianity we don’t go away.

  155. Mike Wyatt

    September 13, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    I know this will probably get lost in all the comments, but when I’m home alone I like to go out in my garden and cover myself in dirt and pretend I’m a carrot. A rising from the dead experience

  156. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    September 13, 2013 at 10:37 pm

    Carrot: Does that explain a lot?

  157. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    September 13, 2013 at 10:38 pm

    dead feed? Well, each side has made its comments and then the time comes for ‘for you your religion and for me my religion’. Other readers can make up their mind of whose side is more logical.

  158. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 14, 2013 at 12:09 am

    @Mike Wyatt!

    So you are convinced or in state of conviction that Jesus rose from dead and alive on the heavens……..and not ready to concede to any rationale and evidence………OK that is fine………….
    Could you please write this here on this thread/feed?

    “I swear by God……that my beliefs are true and nothing but true and if it is lie, God’s curse be on me”

    Can you do that? I know you would never do that.

  159. Zia Shah

    September 16, 2013 at 12:55 am

    When in a difficult spot the Christian apologists want to change the subject, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly.

    Often they want to talk about the loving God of Christianity, as if God of Islam is not loving. They feel that in this area they can use their rhetoric more effectively and confuse the naive readers.

    Those of our Christian friends, who are tempted to do that now, may comment in the following post:

    The Gracious, the Merciful – God is Love!

  160. Mike Wyatt

    September 17, 2013 at 1:00 am

    “I swear by God……that my beliefs are true and nothing but true and if it is lie, God’s curse be on me”

    Can you do that? I know you would never do that.

    Of course I wouldn’t do that because I believe in a Loving God….and a merciful God. My God would never curse anyone.The thought of cursing and damning is foreign to me. …

    Perhaps you should go on your knees for playing God and making judgments and holding others to oaths that are hollow and empty sounding.

  161. Mike Wyatt

    September 17, 2013 at 1:18 am

    When in a difficult spot the __________apologists
    (insert Muslim)
    want to change the subject, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so subtly.
    A useful Interchangeable phrase to use at parties

    I am still waiting for the difficult bit Zia……Please let me know when it is coming.

    It seems to require of you 65 reasons to dismantle other people’s faith. Why did you stop at the number 65 ? I’m sure you could have found one or two more to stick on the stack. I have said repeatedly there is only one reason which you blindly miss. I will repeat if you missed it.

    God is love He sent His only Son Jesus to die and rise again and to bring us new life.

    While that may defy your sense of logic it makes perfectly good sense to 1.25 billion Christians. All the best at chipping away with your hollow discourses. They say Catholics make wonderful converts to Islam because they already have a sense of the divine. However you will have to find the ones who are gullible , bewildered and most easily lead.

  162. Zia Shah

    September 17, 2013 at 1:22 am

    Discussion in this thread has reached its natural conclusion and we have arrived, where Soren Kierkegaard and President Thomas Jefferson reached centuries before.

    Søren Aabye Kierkegaard, one of the leading Christian apologists of his time, confessed, the quagmire between Christianity and rationality, in no uncertain terms:

    It is not the business of any Christian writer or preacher to dilute Christianity to suit the general educated public. The doctrine of the incarnation was to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, and so will it always be, for the doctrine not only transcends reason; it the paradox par excellence; and it can be affirmed only by faith, with passionate inwardness and interest. The substitution of reason for faith means the death of Christianity.

    President Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Smith, in 1822:

    Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

    Christian missionaries use logic and reason, only for bait and switch, because their real emphasis is on ‘faith’ only and their biggest tools are not rational dialogue and debate but propaganda and advertisement.

    There is very high likelihood that I will delete any further comments in this thread.

    Peace!

  163. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    September 18, 2013 at 9:56 am

    Here is another website that show Jesus was a man NOT a God or son of God. He died a natural death and here is his tomb.

    http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php/en/

  164. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    September 18, 2013 at 10:00 am

    Ahmadi Muslims hold the unique belief that Jesus (peace be upon him) survived the crucifixion and travelled towards India to continue his ministry among the Lost Tribes of Israel. Furthermore, they claim that his tomb, containing his body, has been recently re-discovered in India where it can be seen to this day. Ahmadi Muslims also assert that this belief is not only upheld by the Holy Quran and the Sayings of Muhammad (sa), but even by the Holy Bible itself.

    http://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/

  165. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    September 18, 2013 at 10:06 am

    Readers who are interested in the real life of Jesus Christ should read this book:

    Christianity: A Journey from Facts to Fiction
    by Mirza Tahir Ahmad

    http://www.alislam.org/library/books/christianity_facts_to_fiction/index.html

  166. Toby

    September 20, 2013 at 3:08 am

    Conclusion Jesus didn’t die on the cross what was the need to roll the stone away, if he had resurrected? The reason stone was rolled because his physical body which required food (Luke 24.36) could not go out without any help. Accept this man who clarified these issues for us and gave us great news, his name is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and he was the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. You wait for Jesus to come back again vain. He is dead and buried in Kashimir, India.

  167. Alexandra

    September 20, 2013 at 3:53 am

    OK, so all historians, even atheists, confirm the ‘historical Jesus’ – when he lived, what happened to him, that he died at times of Pontius Pilat (this is by the way the reason why this guy is mentioned in the christian credo, since it affirms the tight and verified relationship with the general history), they only argue about what happened later, this is where faith plays role…
    Suddenly, after 19 centuries, there comes one genius called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, who is not even a scholar nor a historian, and claims all these people were wrong…?

    oh, how convincing…

  168. Zia Shah

    September 20, 2013 at 4:09 am

    But, he put forward all the evidence and some of it is right here.

    Historical Jesus does not mean that he has to die on the cross and be resurrected. For example, President Thomas Jefferson saw him as a great teacher and took out all the hype out of his Bible.

  169. Alexandra

    September 20, 2013 at 4:37 am

    You cannot use one part of the Bible as your guidance and disregard the rest as a bullshit. Sorry, either you accept its truth or not.

    Noone can prove that a specific part is correct while another one is not, in fact all the resources that christianity relies on claim its authenticity.

    And it states CLEARLY, in many places that he died: every gospel describes Jesus’s death and placing Him in a grave. And then the resurrection. And then the letters of apostles confirming it all, and then writings of Church Fathers… there is a long history of consistent books, all origins from eye-witnesses.

    I can’t understand how you can read gospels and in the same time claim loudly they are not saying what they are saying… are you blind or simply don’t you want to see?

  170. Alexandra

    September 20, 2013 at 6:46 am

    … and why are you chopping off relevant comments? you claim you know Bible and quote it back an forth, why can’t someone else quote Quran?

  171. Zia Shah

    September 20, 2013 at 7:21 am

    You can quote the Quran, but, please stick to the subject. Did Jesus die or not on the cross? How trust worthy are stories from 2000 years ago is the question?

    You can tell us what the Quran says about Jesus’ death or lack thereof!

    Peace!

  172. Ronald Ashley

    September 20, 2013 at 7:16 pm

    My Brother, I am not here to defend who Jesus Christ is Because He has already did that in the book that was written about Him, Neither would I venture or try to prove that He died on the cross.

    Furthermore, He did not take the time to write a book to profit thereby,as some people do because He is God Almighty and comes what may, there is nothing you nor anyone can do to change that.

    There is I would bring to your attention that you had conveniently left out in referring to Jesus’ prayer when He prayed to His Father “if it be possible Father let this cup be pass from me” you missed it completely Brother! You forget the part He said “Never the less” not My will but Thy will (praying to the Father) notice also He prayed this three times (Mark 14:32-41).

    It strikes me that you conveniently left this out of the 65 reason Jesus did not die on the cross.This is just one one example that you left. You also tried to venture to some how compare the life of Jesus Christ with that of the Prophet Jonah, here is my take when I examine the life of Jesus Christ in comparison to Jonah.

    (Coming back to that, a little about myself) I am 50 years old originally from Jamaica, my highest level of education is GED and that I got when I came to this great country in 2002, however if I should grade your work on the comparison you made with the life of both Jesus Christ and Jonah I would give you F. Based on how I tried to put together this response you could tell yes? But 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

    One day very soon my Brother this same Jesus you and I and everyone else will see Him coming back (even those who pierce Him Revelation 1:7) to give everyone their just reward and like I said before there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

    I hope and pray you will open your heart and mind to Him. Peace.

  173. Zia Shah

    September 21, 2013 at 2:36 am

    Dear Ronald Ashley, you have tried to make a lot of points and in trying to explain or refute your assertions, we will need to create another longish article.

    So, I propose a short solution.

    You wrote:

    One day very soon my Brother this same Jesus you and I and everyone else will see Him coming back, even those who pierce Him. (Revelation 1:7)

    Now, St. Paul thought that Jesus, may peace be on him, would come back within the life time of the generation alive then, but scores of generations have passed and we are still waiting and the credulous Christians continue to hope and believe.

    You say that you are 50 years old. I am 52. Let us set up a time frame, which may be possible within our life time.

    Let us say that if he does not come back in person, in 30 years and you are alive, you will become a Muslim and if he does come back and I am alive, I will become a Christian or whatever Jesus tells me to do.

  174. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 22, 2013 at 1:06 am

    Referring Mike Wyatt comments, “My God would never curse anyone.The thought of cursing and damning is foreign to me. …”

    Amazing isn’t it! Mike you don’t even know that this is one of fundamental Pauline (present day Christianity) dogmas that Jesus dies an accursed death to redeem you from sins? Yours gods do run their businesses on curse.
    That is the problem that’s why I said it is useless to debate or defend Pauline dogmas. They are just man fabricated set of lies.
    Always remember man-made fabrication has a definite age.

  175. Alexandra

    September 22, 2013 at 1:37 am

    @Ahmed Qureshi: where did you learn that christians believe that Jesus CURSED death…?
    Far far from truth: He simply and quietly conquered it, by resurrecting

    and this is not anyone’s doctrine or theory, but words directly from the Bible

    Your choice it so believe them or not, but these words are there and have been since the beginning

  176. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 22, 2013 at 2:48 am

    Alexandra!

    So you don’t believe that Jesus died an accursed death on cross for redemption of sins? If so is the case, Congratulations! you are no more a Christian!

    I responded to Mike comments that Christian god(s) is unaware of curse. Whilst it is totally wrong to say so because curse of God is inevitable in Christian doctrines; and according to Paulism/Christian beliefs, Jesus did sacrifice to take that curse on his shoulder.

  177. Ronald Ashley

    September 22, 2013 at 5:44 am

    My brother, you made mention that Paul taught that Jesus Christ was coming back in his (Paul) life time true did you take he did not presents this as a hard and fast doctrine.
    You also mention ” but scores of generations have passed and we are still waiting and the credulous Christians continue to hope and believe”.

    What if you have took the time to look at 2 peter 3:3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” and presents but side of the argument. Peace

  178. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 22, 2013 at 7:09 am

    hard and fast doctrine!!!!
    A new stuff to know. This thread is very informative indeed.

  179. Ronald Ashley

    September 22, 2013 at 4:14 pm

    Brother Zia Shah, seeing you are the only one who choose to reply to my quest I wished to draw your attention to on of the 65 reason Jesus Christ did not died on the cross.

    This made mention that 1000 years before Jesus #19. Christ came to earth the Jews were burying their dead’s in the ground instead of a cave, this is absolute lie and that is one of the the Hole in the 65 reasons.

    My Bible tells me in the book of St. John 11 that Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from the dead his body was laid in a Cave with a stone at the mouth of the Cave. And this was days before He died on the Cross.

    Be honest Here, Is it because there is no reference of the Historical event recorded in the Holy Qur’an why you actually refuse to believe?

  180. Ronald Ashley

    September 22, 2013 at 4:50 pm

    My Brother Zia Shah

    Let me, if you will permit me to mention #52. Jesus said: “For salvation is of the Jews.” (John 4:22) What it means? And why only for the Jews?

    Have you looked Brother’s carefully at the statement and quotation from the Holy Bible and analyze it before something is said. Take for instance the passage quoted above, when I am looking at the Holy Scriptures and don’t fully comprehend a given text I starts at the beginning of the chapter in question through to the end to get the full analysis of it (I implore you to do the same) before before coming to any conclusion. Here is what I think this text is saying in Short,

    St. John 4:22, You [Samaritans] do not know what you are worshiping [you worship what you do not comprehend]. We do know what we are worshiping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand], for [after all] salvation comes from [among] the Jews. (initially God Almighty has entrusted the Jews to Be the ones to tell the world of His love. To wrap this up, Pleas read St.John 3:16-17 Salvation is “not of the Jews only”. Peace

  181. Mike Wyatt

    September 27, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    What a totally confused thread. A mish mash of hashed misrepresentations.

    Jesus was not just a historical figure a historical fact,and because He lived 2000 doesn’t means our recollection of him us unreliable. The scholarship and the learning has never stopped and the faith and the passing from one generation to another has had continuity. Even the debate between Protestants and Catholics has mellowed and we find more to agree upon than disagree upon. Our Brothers the Jewish people we respect because out of the Hebrew traditions grew the Christian faith.

    This is our strength.There is a continuous unbroken thread that becomes deeper and stronger.

    The bits that Muhammad couldn’t get his head around about the Judaeo Christian prophecies and the journey of 4000+ years he just edited out and then cut and pasted his own version of the truth.Then during his epileptic fits in a cave, which he called visions, this became his guiding fiction melding together stuff of his own invention.Scary stuff.

    If ever there was a reason to live and a reason to die it would be in the strength we draw from the life of Jesus.

    It is good to skim and scan over this rubbish and know this unreflective guiding fiction people carry around in their heads. Blinded by the light of the Truth they have to concoct their own mixtures and drink them.

    Immunized from the Truth. They have taken the antibiotics which screens out the real Jesus and are promoting some watered down prophet historical figure and then buttressing their deceptions with wonky interpretations. Thank goodness this little backwater communication called the Muslim Times is not in the mainstream of debate. Its being suitably given treatment it deserves.

    Jesus Died and Rose again He is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. This dynamic relationship goes way way beyond the egotistical god .

  182. Ghulam Sarwar

    September 27, 2013 at 8:18 pm

    Anything that we say on this topic may offend the Christian friends. All signs point to the fact that Jesus did not die on the Cross. His death on the cross was invented by a person to use it for the redemption of sin. Whose sin? The sin of mankind or only that wicked generation??

    Whatever Paul taught, we Muslims cannot digest. He was an enemy of Jesus. He had not walked with Jesus for a single day. He had killed some followers of Jesus. Now Paul is the witness of his own conversion.
    Even Jesus (a.s.) had never predicted that Paul will convert and become a friend.

    Paul says Jesus appeared to him. We do not believe him. Jesus did not appear to any of his true disciples to tell them that he had appeared to Paul and Paul has become a friend. If there is any such thing in the Bible, I request the Christian friends to present to us please. Otherwise forget Paul or Saul of Tarsus.

    How come Paul became a most senior leader of the lot. He took the followers on a wrong path altogether. He made the Christians to take up a defeatist attitude, even making Jesus a cursed person. The present day Christians are swallowing that pill of curse happily. But curse is not a good thing. A cursed person is away from the Mercy of God Almighty.

    Real curse is the curse of God. The curse of the people has no value, no meaning. The gospels do not speak of any curse or atonement. Even the four gospels are not the word of God. But still they describe the life story and struggle of Jesus. The gospels are more reliable than the later additions (letters) of Paul.

    The old testament is attached with the New Testament against the teaching of Jesus a.s. Jesus had told not to put new wine in old bottles. So why is New Testament tied up with Old Testament (OT)?? We know the reasons. Anyhow:

    in OT, it is said that any one who dies on the cross is a cursed person. Jesus a.s. knew that. His enemies (Old time Jews) knew that. That is why they wanted to kill Jesus on the cross to prove that he was cursed and not from God.
    Jesus, on the other hand, knew that and did not want to die on the Cross. He was not afraid of death. But he did not want to die on the Cross. That is why he prayed to God Almighty to avoid the cup.

    Jesus was the beloved of God. His prayer must be accepted and it was accepted. That is proved from the Quran and the BibleNT. In bible, it is told that an angel appeared to Jesus and was comforting him, meaning, angel told Jesus that his prayer to avoid the cup is accepted. The Quran is more clear on this subject.(Chapter 3)

    Because Jesus a.s. knew that he will not die on the cross, and when all things appeared to go wrong, he yelled and reminded God Almighty in the words “Eli, Eli, why have you forsaken me??”

    All things are pointing to the fact that Jesus had fainted and not died on the Cross. His legs were not broken. He was not formally buried and no burial rites were performed. He was laid in a big room like place and treated by a physician who had brought many herbs. The physician had brought a special ointment to cure (heal) the wounds of Jesus a.s.

    Jesus a.s. was well looked after for a few hours and then removed to a more comfortable place before guards were put on the tomb. That was done to protect him from any further trouble. The stone was in place.

    I am sure that the enemies of Jesus a.s. were not sure of his death. Otherwise, why they would put guard on the tomb?? The tomb was empty with the stone in place. They did not know that it was empty.

    It was the major mistake of the opponents that they did not take charge of the body of Jesus when it was brought down from the Cross. That is where they lost everything.
    It was a divine miracle for the sake of Jesus to survive the suffering on the Cross. The Christians are denying that miracle.

    The enemies of Jesus wanted to kill him on the Cross. Jesus did not want to die on the Cross. We have to see who succeeded, the enemies or Jesus? We Ahmadi Muslims believe that the enemies of Jesus failed in their mission. That is what is told to us in the Quran. That is what we believe. The Christians friends are free to believe whatever they find better.

  183. Mike Wyatt

    September 28, 2013 at 3:38 am

    Ghulam Sarwar I have never hear such rubbish in all my life. Infact that would be insulting rubbish to put this misrepresentation alongside …

  184. Mike Wyatt

    September 28, 2013 at 4:06 am

    People who write such rubbish are like terrorists who take over a mall like in Kenya. The idea is to spread confusion and destabilize people. …

  185. Zia Shah

    September 28, 2013 at 5:11 am

    Mike, the fact that some people are terrorists and take innocent lives for their political gains is a separate topic from whether Jesus died on the cross or not.

    We will take your strange mixing of the two as a compliment in disguise and your recognition that you have understood that Jesus did not die on the cross, because of these 65 reasons and now are looking for an exit.

    We, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has condemned terrorism for 125 years, unequivocally and unconditionally and will continue to do this.

    We recognize that every human life is sacred and there is no justification to kill any innocent human being.

  186. Mike

    September 30, 2013 at 9:57 am

    Because if Muslim admit Jesus died on the cross and came to live again – it means Islam is false – Mohammed NOTHING compare to Jesus who died and rise again from the dead :)

  187. Ahmed Qureshi

    September 30, 2013 at 10:15 am

    @Mike

    Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus Christ one of three gods according to Pauline dogmas and present Christianity, physically and spiritually is dead while Muhammad SAW is spiritually alive and will forever be alive. So Christianity is a dead religion and Islam is forever green.

    Get your facts straight!

  188. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    September 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm

    I think as far as the discussion with Mike about the divinity of Jesus goes, we have come to the point of ‘for you your religion and for me my religion’. Both sides have made their points. May Allah be our Guide always!

  189. John Orpaa

    October 1, 2013 at 1:25 am

    The 65 questions from the writer of this article is out of a cowardised heart and idleness. he who lacket understanding should sort for it. the 65 article written, is out of ignorance and canality. Jesus came to die for you and me, he came to save mankind not the jew alone! and that is why the grace of God through His son Jesus christ still remain for you and me today. for the fact that Jesus died and resurected the third day, is not a yardstick for this article. i singulize those 65 article because it make no sence, rather heading toward tarnishing ones religious belief. The death of Jesus christ is universal! the great event that happened as of then can not be explained with a canal thinking, the explanation must be altered by the Holy spirit which is the conforter. I repeat again, whosoever lacketh understanding should sort for it!

  190. Zia Shah

    October 1, 2013 at 1:45 am

    Thank you John Orpaa, for your tall claims without offering any reasons or arguments.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. Resurrection is a claim never claimed for any human other than Jesus, may peace be on him and we have had billions of humans on our planet earth.

    Peace.

  191. John Orpaa

    October 1, 2013 at 2:15 am

    it is wriiten of the old time that His legs shall not be brocken. Jesus died and went down to the heart of the earth i.e to hades and on the third day, he resurected! we can not compare Ourselves with Jesus Christ, He is God, in human form, we need to understand the basic of christ before lamenting. Jesus christ is incomparable, our perfect example.

  192. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    October 1, 2013 at 2:28 am

    John: Well, how can a God be a perfect example for us mortals? On the other hand a human prophet can be, as we believe the Prophet Mohammad, peace be on him, is.

  193. John Orpaa

    October 1, 2013 at 3:09 am

    i dont have to proof any thing zia shah, the Holy Bible made it clear. And that same Bible also said, many will fail to believe the gospel of Jesus christ. you are the type of category of people the Bible is refering to. Please take note:- if eventually you die in the state of deceptive and argumentative delima, you will go to hell fire! and if you miss this HEAVEN, you will CRY!

  194. John Orpaa

    October 1, 2013 at 3:38 am

    rafiq: well, all i want you to know is that christ came to this world in a divinely super natural way of which man can not explain, except inspired by the Holy spirit. christ is not to be compeared to any mortal that have ever lived, not even muhammad. Christ He beared the sin of the whole word. the bible said, “behold the LAMB of God which taketh the sins of the world!” this was the reason why God forsook Jesus christ when He was nailed on the cross, the sins of this world was great to the extent God turned His back to Jesus while on the cross.

  195. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    October 1, 2013 at 6:01 am

    John: Could God, the creator of all the worlds, not simply forgive us? Is Forgiveness not in his power? (I once asked this question to a priest and his answer was: ‘Yes, when I was studying in the seminary I had many sleepless nights on this very question’).

  196. Mike Wyatt

    October 1, 2013 at 9:04 am

    Reason can take us so far the crowning achievement of Reason is Faith. We Christians believe it is wise ding and God in His wisdom to rely and faith not hollow discussion from mere mortals.

    Life around you should be convincing enough the Caterpillar that small wriggly thing has to die to go into a comatosed state in order to rise again.

    The whole of nature is screaming at you death and resurrection. death and resurrection …

  197. Zia Shah

    October 1, 2013 at 9:10 am

    All the faithful Christians, I have a bridge to sell you also.

    Name the city of your choice and have faith. You will be rich collecting toll. Have trust!

  198. Ahmed Qureshi

    October 1, 2013 at 9:36 am

    Zia Sahib!

    wonderful comments. Mashallah!

  199. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 1, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    I had no intention of hurting any one’s feelings. But this is a discussion and I did not abuse any one. I had presented the teachings of Church as given in BibleNT. Nobody replied with references.

    Mike is now talking about faith. We have that (faith) as a first step in Islam. Faith is necessary. But not a blind faith. And also faith must be followed by deeds.

    Quran is full of such statements (verses): “Those who believe (mean have faith) and do good deeds….”

    It is again Paul who taught: “You will be saved by faith alone..” What did he mean by that?? That Jesus died on the Cross for their sins?? He wanted every one to believe that??

  200. ssentongo

    October 2, 2013 at 1:03 am

    Is it a war purporting to clariify that the Holy Quran is more authentic than the Holy Bible? Or, its a nother route to destroy christians pretexting that they attacked the Holy Quran? We respect your beliefs and logic to kniws that beliefs lack support of emperical evidence. We want respect, as we too respect Prophet Mohammed despite the owful stories associated with him.. Alla loves peace. Not incitement of others to turnish others beliefs. George Ssentongo

  201. Zia Shah

    October 2, 2013 at 1:19 am

    “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.” – attributed to Voltaire

    I think mutual respect, friendship and even love does not preclude polite exchange of ideas.

    We, never see eye to eye even with those who are closest to us, our parents, children and spouses.

    No one is required to accept the other’s views willy nilly. A balance of respect and polite and rational communication is the key among humans. The Holy Quran also tells us:

    And thou shalt assuredly find those who say, ‘We are Christians,’ to be the nearest of them in love to the believers. That is because amongst them are savants and monks and because they are not proud. (Al Quran 5:83)

    Peace and Love

  202. kim

    October 5, 2013 at 1:38 am

    Yuo big liars there is no John 26 in the bible Joh ends in 21

  203. Marie Devine

    October 6, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    In general, both Christianity and Islam are spiritually dead. God’s word is LIFE; not following GOD’S word is death. Jesus said, Let the dead bury the dead. Jesus said to live by every word out of the mouth of God. Most of that is in the Law of Moses, and in the Prophets; Jesus came to fulfill them, showing God is true, not to do away or destroy them.

    God’s message to Muhammad was to Say, O People of the Scripture (600+AD), you stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and the Gospel. He was a prophet to Christians and Jews who, as now, only follow one part of the Bible (In actuality, they follow nothing. They make images, they don’t keep the 7th day Sabbath of no work as commanded; and they don’t keep God’s commanded holy memorial feasts with Sabbaths of no work around them. What we can follow, we should follow; and they do not seek holiness. Exodus 20; Leviticus 23, 26; Matthew 4:4, Deuteronomy 4:2.
    Qur’an 5:68, 69; 5.43-51 judge by Torah; 42:13-16; 3:84-85
    All are in judgment time and reaping their temporary rewards. God is hoping they will fear His eternal judgment and turn to obeying in truth while they still can.

  204. Mike Wyatt

    October 8, 2013 at 2:32 am

    Follow what you like. Follow a taxi or a bus and save yourself paying the fare.

    If you are coming closer to God you can listen to His voice and see His face where ever you go. There are needs a plenty.

    Searching for Truth is one thing but going out to the Poor and the Needy and helping others is surely the part I don’t here you stressing Marie.

    You can warble on as much as you like on your perch but unless you have a balanced view you will topple off. I’m not going to any day soon be selling up everything and following you. Your not my guru

  205. ezekiel

    October 8, 2013 at 4:27 am

    There is something about you Muslims, if some Christian writes anything about your Muhammed; even if he is right, you people will send Interpol after Him.You said that Jesus did not die as reported by the Bible, what then happened? where did He go? where is He now’ what is He doing now.May be I have to remind you of what your quran said of Jesus, that Jesus is in the third heaven and that He is coming back again to lead all Muslims in their final prayers.now compare your Muhammed who when He was dying told his followers that He did not know where He was going that His followers should pray for Him.[ no wonder when you Muslims want to pray, you pray for your Muhammed first]. Muhammed died his grave is your idol till tomorrow.Jesus told us that he knew where He was going. He promised coming back again as agreed by your Quran.If not because the devil has blindfolded the Muslims from the trueth, compare Muhammed and Jesus who according to your Quran will lead you in the final prayers. accept Jesus the unique one, the only one among all the ‘Prophets’[according to you Muslims],[ Christians call him the Son of God,becouse no one could do and will never do what He did, eg He is coming back again as He promised and believed even by you MUslims]Muhammed died he never rose, Jesus did. ok you said you do not believe this, but you believe He is coming back again which Muhammed is not reported to attempt. I pray that God will open your eyes to the only one who when compared to Muhammed etc is the best. YOu will have no excuse befor God because you have been hearing and you have heard again

  206. patience

    October 11, 2013 at 7:11 am

    the reason why you muslims say what you say about Jesus Christ is because he is knocking on your doors ..just let him in and he will eat with you

  207. Parvez

    October 11, 2013 at 9:43 am

    jesus the son of mary was raised up alive into the heavens according to the ahadith literature. And the holy prophet Muhammad (saw) said that the messiah jesus the son of mary will descend near the end of times, to preach monotheism and proclaim that Allah is one with no partners.

    But jesus the son mary willl follow the quran and sunnah of muhammad (saw) hence jesus will be a follower of the teachings of Islam. Hence the best of all prophets is Muhammad (saw).

    the hadith literature states many virtues of Muhammad (saw) that shows his unique status:
    Muhammad (saw) recieved the best revelation – the Quran
    Muhammad (saw) will be the first to be ressurected on day of judgement. he will be the first to enter jannah. the shariah of Muhammad (saw) is the last and complete path to Allah.

  208. Salma Javid Khan

    October 11, 2013 at 9:59 am

    For us Muslims, the Holy Qur’an is an authority of the highest grade ………‘Surely conjecture avails naught (nothing) against truth.’ (10:37)

    The Rumors:
    Blind Belief1: The traditional belief of the majority of Muslims masses is that Jesus was not put on the cross at all, and that someone else resembling Jesus was crucified in his place. Jesus, instead, is supposed to have been ‘raised’ to heaven or perhaps skies, body and soul.

    Blind Belief2:
    Few of the so-called orthodox Muslim clergy believe that Jesus was a great prophet from God (and a prophet can’t die an accursed death) so was taken away from the cross after being crucified and was shifted to the fourth (or perhaps fifth) heaven to be saved. And again, there are few groups of Muslims who believe that Jesus was taken away from the cross during the storm and was placed somewhere between the seven skies.

    Well, lets see what Allah has to say about it, shall we?

    Death of Jesus Proved by Quran-e-Majeed

    All praise belongs to Allah, Who has sent down the Book to His servant, free from all distortion, full of truth and guidance…(Ch.18:Vs.2-3)

    At the outset, I’d clearly like to put down that:
    There is not a single verse in the Holy Quran where it is written that Jesus (as) is alive today.
    There is not a single verse in the Holy Quran where it is written that Jesus Christ went up to some skies or Heaven.
    Let alone Jesus, there is no mention of any physical ascension of any living prophet.
    No hadith (sayings of Prophet Mohammad (saw)) testifies the physical ascension of Jesus (as) – Not even a single!

    So depending on The Holy Quran & The Hadees I reject the belief that Jesus Christ went into space to escape crucifixion or is alive up there today.

    A Warning to the disbelievers in Qur’an:

    O People of the Book! Exceed not the limits in your religion and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and a fulfillment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. (Ch.4: V.172)

    The Quran is quite clear that Hadhrat Jesus (as) has passed away. Let me present to you the specific verses right from Quran-e-Paak, which prove my point – The Truth:

    ………‘Surely conjecture avails naught (nothing) against truth.’ (10:37)

    1. Jesus passed away:

    “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how WE explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.” (The Holy Quran, 5:76)

    THIS AAYAT (verse) PROVES IT PERFECTLY THAT ISA IBN MARYAM HAS DIED AND LEAVES NO ROOM FOR ANY CONFUSION: “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away”.

    Surely we belong to Allah and to Him shall we return [2:157]

    This is proved by the below verse of Al-Anbiya’:

    [21:9] And We did not give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they to live for ever.

    Here ‘them’ & ‘they’ specifically refers to Messengers.
    Allah has not given them a body that ‘ate no food’ (in this world) and now, even if we nonsensically assume that Jesus is up above since 2000 years without food, we cannot expect him to be alive.

    God, the knower of Past, Present and Future knew full well that Mullahs of later time will assign nonsense stuff to Jesus, the Son of Mary (pbuh), so he already provided us with knowledge through the Verses of the Holy Quran, Subhan’Allah!

    [33:63] Such has been the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away before, and thou wilt never find a change in the way of Allah.

    And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. (The Holy Quran, 3:145)

    This verse clearly states that ‘All messengers have passed away who had come before Prophet Mohammad’. Jesus (as) had come approximately 600 years before Mohammad (saw). Now, if you believe that the Messiah Jesus is still alive (2000 years later) then God’s statement in the Holy Quran should be wrong, agreed?

    I wonder, what’s wrong with the Muslims of today who consider the Mullah to be correct and agree with his false views and reject the Truth recorded in the Quran, in the words of Allah, the almighty.

    For the Mullah, they agree that God himself can be wrong! Extremely pathetic!

    Referring to the Holy Prophet [saw] God says:
    WE granted not everlasting life to any mortal before thee. If they shouldst die, shall they live here for ever? (The Holy Quran, 21:35)

    God loves the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) more than He loves anyone else. He was the purpose for all creation as Hadith says: “Had I not created thee I would have created neither heaven nor earth.”

    Hence, if any man deserved to remain alive and ascend to heaven, it was our Holy Prophet (saw). If he has died in the usual way, other prophets definitely must have died in the same way.

    Any arguments, there?

    Does anybody thinks that [Astagfirullah Astagfirullah Astagfirullah] Jesus is mightier than the Holy Prophet Mohammad Mustafa (May Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) who is the Nabi-e-Kareem (Chief of Prophets), Khatamun Nabiyyeen (The Seal of Prophets), Khatamul Ambiya (Leader of the elect), Khatamul Mursileen, (Pride of the Prophets)?

    THE BEST HADITH TO PROVE DEATH OF JESUS:

    In Bukhari, it is recorded that after the death of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), some of the companions, among them Hadhrat Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra), doubted he was really dead. However, Hadhrat Abu Bakr (ra), ascended to the pulpit in the Mosque and recited the Quranic verse: Muhammad is only a Messenger. All Messengers before him have passed away. (3:145)

    In this verse of the Holy Quran the passing away of all the Messengers who came before the Holy Prophet (saw) has been pronounced; and the passing away has been adjudged only in two ways–either by death or through assassination. Had there been any third way of passing away (like that of ascending to heaven ALIVE) it should have been mentioned by God. The passing away of Jesus & other Messengers had already been mentioned in 5:76 wherein Allah says:

    “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away ….”

    Coming back to the story: After the short speech and recitation of this verse by Abu Bakr (ra) the companions realized that indeed the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) had passed away. NO ONE OBJECTED THAT HADHRAT Jesus (as) OR ANY OTHER PROPHET HAD NOT DIED. Now, if the companions present on this occasion thought that Hadhrat Jesus (as) had been alive in Heaven for 600 years, they would have stood up and pointed out to Hadhrat Abu Bakr (ra), that it was wrong to say that all the earlier prophets had died.

    Everyone Accepted And Confirmed The Death Of All Previous Prophets.
    This Was The First Ijma Or Consensus Of The Muslim Community. The family of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) were also agreed on the death of Hadhrat Jesus (as).

    It is recorded in Majma-al-Bahar that, according to Imam Malik, Jesus died in the natural way.

    Again the Holy Prophet himself had said,
    “If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me.” (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24; Fath al-Bayan, vol. 2, p. 246; Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 81 of Al Imran, Zurqani, Vol. VI, p. 54, Tibrani Kabeer).

    The Holy Prophet’s words are significant and clear. If, says he, Moses and Jesus were alive. This ‘if’ means that the two are not alive. Moses is not alive, nor is Jesus. This is an important declaration by the Holy Prophet bearing on the subject.

    After hearing this declaration, no true follower of the Prophet can think that Jesus is alive in Heaven, because, if Jesus is alive, this declaration of the Holy Prophet turns out to be false, Astaghfirullah!

    In short, the Holy Quran, the Traditions, the consensus of opinion among the Companions and the family of the Holy Prophet, and the opinions of the doctors of Islam all support belief in the death of Jesus. All of them teach that Jesus died like all mortals. All these and scholars (Sahaba of the prophet (saw), Imams, Sunni (Deobandi, Brelvi, Sufi), Shia) can not be wrong all at once. And more than that if Holy Prophet (saw) himself has decided the issue of of Jesus then no Muslim can argue with that.

    Now are the Mullahs / Muftis of Modern Islam greater than all of above?
    Now do we have to reject all of these and believe in the lies of Mullah?
    Or dear wise-Muslims, do you think Mullah is even greater than Allah? Astaghfirullah!
    Choose whom you wish to follow.

    Follow Allah, forget the Mullah

  209. Parvez

    October 11, 2013 at 10:55 am

    regarding the verse ; “The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; other messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.”

    it generally means that messengers have passed away before and that also isa will die as well.

    regarding the other ayat; “And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily messengers have passed away before him. (The Holy Quran, 3:145)

    its general and that all messengers will pass away. it does not mean that all messengers have dies since some of the angels are mentioned in the quran as messengers. but all messegers that are alive will die near the hour such as jesus and all angels will die on day of judgment based upon ahadith. then all humans, jinn and angels will be raised up alive.

    bayhaqi reported that the prophet 9saw) said ; “Allah saved isa ibn maryam and raised him upto the heavens.”

    hence the Quran, sunnah, the ijma of the sahabas and the ijma of the classical scholars and scolars of ahle sunnah agreed that isa ibn maryam was raised up alive.

    the ahadith mention that isa ibn maryam will return from heaven and descend oto damascus and pray behind Imam Mahdi. then isa will kill dajjal and preach islam.

  210. Amtul Q Farhat

    October 11, 2013 at 11:33 am

    Comments can be made brief by linking rather than copying the contents.
    Besides brief comments are widely read and enjoyed. Thanks

  211. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 12, 2013 at 10:15 am

    Parvez posted on 11 Oct:
    regarding the other ayat; “And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily messengers have passed away before him. (The Holy Quran, 3:145)

    its general and that all messengers will pass away. it does not mean that all messengers have dies(Sic died)
    ———————————————

    The word used for messengers passing away is “Qadd Khalat” which is definitive past tense. It is not future tense. It does not mean “will die”. It means “messengers before him have surely passed away.”

    Therefore messengers before Muhammad s.a.w.s. had passed away and Jesus (Isa a.s.) was one of them who was before our prophet s.a.w.s. So Isa a.s. had also passed away.

    May I add a few more lines. The actual words in the verse seem to be “Qadd Khalat min qablihee (Jamee) ar Rusul.” The word Jamee is Makhzoof and should be interpolated. If such method was not used in the Quran, the book would have become voluminous.

    So the real meaning of the verse or translation would be: “And Muhammad is only a messenger. Surely, (all) messengers have passed away before him.”
    —————————–

  212. Ahmed Qureshi

    October 12, 2013 at 11:01 am

    Failed to grasp how Parvez’s booklet is allowed to publish on supposedly commenting sections?

    @Parvez

    At least I did not even take a glance on your words. You achieved nothing but waste of time.

  213. Parvez

    October 12, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    regarding the verse in the quran ch 3 vs 144

    “Muhammad is no more than a Messenger and indeed many Messengers have passed away before him.”

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=490&Itemid=46

    it is a proof that messengers are not immortal. Also its a general verse that means messengers have passed away. but it odesnt mean that all messengers have died before Muhammad such as the angels and jesus the son of mary.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2485&Itemid=77

    ““Praise be to Allah, who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, who made the angels, messengers with wings….” [35:1]

    hence not all messengers have dies since there are some angels regarded as messengers.

    also there are many ahadith that states that isa ibn maryam was raised up alive into the heavens and that he will return to kill dajjal and preach islam and pray behind Imam mahdi.

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=579&Itemid=59

  214. Parvez

    October 12, 2013 at 3:40 pm

    there were two typo in my previous comment

    but it doesn’t mean*

    not all messengers have died*

  215. Zia Shah

    October 12, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    Dear Parvez, I am sorry to say that in this age of information and wisdom, you continue to believe in fairy tales and you want to bend all reality to your fairy tales of Jesus, may peace be on him, having been taken to heaven, while some one else was given his form and crucified on the cross.

    Jesus of your imagination will now be 2050 years old, defying every thing we know about biology and aging, spoke a language, which hardly exists, lived in a time, when 3/4th of the Roman Empire were slaves, taught a religion, which does not exist any more, as it has been taken over by Pauline Christianity.

    If he were to come in this world, since the industrial revolution, he will find nothing familiar, unable to communicate, even if he does not have severe memory loss, already.

    Which planet does he live in by the way and are conditions conducive to supporting human life on that planet?

    What divine purpose would sending of an at least 2050 year old person, excuse my language, demented and mute serve, which God could not achieve by appointing one of the billions present today as reformer?

    Why does God have to destroy all laws of nature, of life and biology, to what end?

    Sadly, you are being penny wise and pound foolish. Unfortunately, many Sunnis are stuck in nit picking and spliting hair, in the Ahmadiyya understanding, without analyzing the fairy tales that they carry with them.

    What is even more unfortunate that many a Sunni Muslims bend their understanding of the Holy Quran around these fairy tales, making themselves a laughing stock of the world!

    I think what could benefit all of us, from Jesus, may peace be on him, is his saying:

    And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? (Matthew 7:3)

    Ahmadiyya literature presents thirty verses from the Holy Quran to show that Jesus, may peace be on him, has died and is not alive.

    Even if there were no verses our daily experience of billions dying in our own time should convince us that Jesus has died.

    I hope you will excuse my shrill tone here as I was afraid without it you are likely to miss the point.

    Your fairy tales include extraordinary claims and for extraordinary claims one should present extraordinary proofs and evidence and all you have to present is some misinterpretations of some Hadiths.

  216. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    October 12, 2013 at 10:04 pm

    Pervez’s posts seem to me to be a bit ‘repetitive’ …

  217. Zia Shah

    October 13, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Parvez, I have deleted some of your recent comments in this thread or post as those are mere repetitions of your references or at least that is what seems to me.

    If you want to talk to us rather than copy and paste, then, respond in reasonable language to my previous comment please and I will approve that.

    You can always link your references.

    Salam and Peace!

  218. Parvez

    October 13, 2013 at 11:16 am

    the intepretations of the quran by the Prophet (saw) and the sahabas of the relevant verse regarding the messiah states that the messiah isa ibn maryam was raised up alive and will return before the hour. The below link contains authentic ahadith about the return of isa ibn maryam;

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2076&Itemid=99

    “And indeed, Jesus will be a sign of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.” [quran ch 43 vs61]

    notice the prophet (saw) always refered to the return of the messiah as isa ibn maryam, hence he is the same messiah who will come back.

    regarding the miracle of the return of the messiah; the quran and ahadith mention many miracles that are beyond natural laws.
    Examples include the miracle birth of jesus, jesus healing those born blind, sulayman (as) speaking to birds and commanding the jinns, nuh (as) living for 950 years, moon being split, muhammad (saw) going from makkah to jerusalem and then to the heavens and coming back to makkah within a night, staff of moses turning to snake, the split of the red sea, zakariya’s wife giving birth to yahya at barren age and many other miracles.

    To not believe in the miracles in the quran and ahadith shows lack of faith and opens the door to other problems. hw can any1 prove the concept of revelations, prophethood, existence of angels, jinns, heaven, hell and the hereafter??

  219. Zia Shah

    October 13, 2013 at 11:29 am

    I have reproduced your comment in a different thread, where it truly belongs.

    We will discuss it further there:

    http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2011/08/religion/islam/ahmadiyya-vs-sunni-debate-death-of-jesus-urdu#comment-667155

    By the way, do you know Urdu?

  220. Parvez

    October 13, 2013 at 11:31 am

    no . videos will need to be in english

  221. CNC

    October 15, 2013 at 9:29 pm

    WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD:
    The author of this article and most comments believed in one thing: The authority of Christ over crucifixion or death on the cross. To the extent anyone believes is the extent to which his or faith can be measured. There are not limit to what God, the father of Jesus Christ can do either by resurrection from grave or sepulcher or tomb or even from dungeon or from anywhere. Once God wants to save Him from death, God could have resisted His arrest. One thing noted in this article is that the writer is still oppressed by fear of death and it’s sting knowing that he the writer will die like many writers did died latter since about 2000 years of this debate.

    Where is the man who went to the cross? How could the Jews and the Roman soldiers exhibit such an unprofessional execution and termination of such a high profile convict knowing the socio- religious implications? All these assumptions of human error was made possible by the power of resurrection who is God and Father who raised Jesus from the dead. Even if they had gridded him into powder or cremated Him in fire or by shooting like today, the same power could have applied and there will still be some assumed human errors and Jesus will still survive death.

    Jesus was not a magician who needed a show or display of power. He was not seeking for popularity or looking for general acceptance and political recognition of anyone. So it was not necessary to have done what the chief priests and the soldiers were demanding from Him to do so that they can believe. It is still an act of faith even today. Most of us have no prove of the person we call our father and mother yet we believe they are our parents. Everything must not be proved beyond reasonable doubts because there must always be a doubt and disagreements due to economic or religious interests and differences.

    The problem is is a religious battle and fight to defend one holy book and discredit the other yet the book where God has written are the hearts of human beings. It seems this religion without Love has overtaken the sense of purpose of many and they are struggling for one to dominate another. Jesus Christ teaches and stands for love. Religions are products of men. Even those who crucified Him on the cross were all doing so religiously. So let the debate continue endlessly but the truth remains that Jesus Christ has power over death whether on the cross or anywhere. and That power is of His father who is God and father of a spirits both life or death. If we all believe that God saved Him from dying, it could have been that even if Jesus was dead, the same father could have resurrected Him from death or grave or fire or cross or water or anything that could kill. C.N.Chris

  222. Zia Shah

    October 16, 2013 at 1:07 am

    If God the Father is in charge and everything was running smooth, while Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, what is the need for Jesus? He is not God.

    CNC you seem to be able to believe any thing, but, have such resistance against believing that Jesus did not die on the cross.

    God can do anything, but, He cannot do, what is contradictory or irrational and against wisdom.

  223. CNC

    October 16, 2013 at 2:24 am

    Many prophecies before His birth and utterances of Jesus while teaching suggested his resurrection from death after 3 days. THose who plotted His execution knew these facts even though it escaped their memory so that they could be beaten in their own game.

    http://www.Facebook.com/onebodyonechrist

  224. bob campbell

    October 16, 2013 at 11:36 am

    Ok, ok; I’m 36 years old. I twist my ankle and I can barely walk for a week; I cut my thigh and had stitches and could barely move my leg for days; I pull a muscle and i’m sore, I get sick I’m incapacitated for a day or so… but you are telling me Jesus did not die and was not resurrected??? So after being crucified, large nails driven into his hands and feet and a sword piercing his side that less than 48 hours later he is up moving around on his own????? Nah, I dont think so. Arms being strethched out of their sockets while he is nailed to the cross but less than 48 hours he is able to feed himself? He wouldnt have ben able to walk or use his arms or hands. Sorry but I believe you are wrong here.

  225. Zia Shah

    October 16, 2013 at 1:09 pm

    Dear Bob, if you are so ready to accept resurrection, which has been never claimed otherwise in human affairs, then what is so difficult about resuscitation, which happens daily in every modern Hospital of the world.

    And how did you come up with the idea of dislocation of shoulders or other arm joints? Your addition reminds me, how orally stories are built and embellished, to develop legends and myths.

    Have you seen the living volunteers in Philippines, who go through crucifixion. Try this BBC documentary:

    http://youtu.be/BvrON2xwFYo

  226. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm

    Dear CNC, I present and comment on some part of your post:

    CNC:
    There are not limit to what God, the father of Jesus Christ can do either by resurrection from grave or sepulcher or tomb or even from dungeon or from anywhere.

    G.S. : There are no limits to what God can do except what He has imposed upon himself. For instance, God will not urinate. He will not tell a lie. He will not eat. He will not do a thing against His own promise.
    The real thing is that God is capable of doing whatever He wills; whatever he wants to do. So we have to prove that God wanted to kill Jesus on the Cross. And that can never be proved from the Bible or the Quran.

    Quran clearly tells that Jesus was told after his prayer that he will die a natural peaceful death.

    The Bible is also telling us same thing that while Jesus a.s. was praying in the garden before his arrest, an angel visited him. That angel was comforting him. It means that his prayer was accepted.

    The prayer of Jesus a.s. was to avoid the cup which was being prepared for him i.e. death on the cross. He was praying to God to avoid that cup. He was told by God during his prayer that he need not pray any more. His prayer was accepted. That is the meaning of comfort for him FROM THE HOLY BIBLE.

    Jesus a.s. had himself prophesied to the wicked generation who were asking him for a sign of his truth and athenticity. He told them that no sign will be shown to the wicked generation except the sign of Jonas.
    The sign of Jonas was that Jonas a.s. went into the belly of the fish (?) (whale) ALIVE. He remained there for three days ALIVE (did not die). Jonas came out from the belly of the fish ALIVE.

    So how Jesus could go into the tomb as a dead person? How can he remain dead in the tomb? Coming out ALIVE from the tomb is easily understood if he was never dead. Jesus was also ALIVE when he went into the tomb. That is only possible if he was ALIVE when he came down from the Cross.

    That is all according to the words of Jesus a.s. himself in the holy Bible.
    ——————————————

    CNC: Once God wants to save Him from death, God could have resisted His arrest.

    G.S. You are assuming that God wanted to kill Jesus on the Cross. That God did not want to save him. That you have to prove. That is against the will of Jesus. That means God is against the will and wishes of Jesus. That is not a good thing which proves differences in your two gods.
    One god wants to be saved and the other God wants to kill him. Will you dear Christian friends try to please understand the implications of your own teachings! Please bring some useful material from BibleNt (gospels) to help and prove your points.

    CNC: Where is the man who went to the cross? How could the Jews and the Roman soldiers exhibit such an unprofessional execution and termination of such a high profile convict knowing the socio- religious implications? All these assumptions of human error was made possible by the power of resurrection who is God and Father who raised Jesus from the dead.

    G.S.: There is no other man. It was the beloved Jesus a.s. himself who was on the Cross. Some (one) of your monks had floated the theory of Jesus shape given to another person. That story is false. That story is making a fool of the Muslims.

    We Ahmadi Muslims do not believe that it was some one else on the Cross. We are with you and with the Jews on this matter that it was Jesus himself on the Cross. So please forget that.

    You are again assuming that Jesus died on the Cross. That is not true. He was not dead when he came down from the Cross. There is no need to kill him. Then every thing is well understood.

    Yo can all forget the original sin too (of Adam a.s.) Adam prayed to Allah (God) for forgiveness and he (and his wife) were both forgiven.
    So there is no original sin and no inherited sin and no need to kill any innocent beloved person on the cross as fee for other’s sins. Every one is born innocent. That is what the Ahmadi Muslims believe. You can also believe the same if you like. There is no compulsion; no problem for us.
    —————————–
    CNC: Jesus was not a magician who needed a show or display of power. He was not seeking for popularity or looking for general acceptance and political recognition of anyone. So it was not necessary to have done what the chief priests and the soldiers were demanding from Him to do so that they can believe. It is still an act of faith even today. Most of us have no prove of the person we call our father and mother yet we believe they are our parents. Everything must not be proved beyond reasonable doubts because there must always be a doubt and disagreements due to economic or religious interests and differences.

    G.S. : Well said CNC. Jesus was not a magician. He was a beloved person of God who had come to improve the lot of his people (Jews) in difficult times. He was a Jew. He lived as a very good Jew. He had to follow the Jewish law and he was tied down by the Roman law too. That was also a great handicap. Many of his people accepted him but the corrupt (few) clergy of that time did not accept him. They misguided the masses too against Jesus.

    Those enemies got Jesus arested. They wanted to prove that he was not from God. For that, they had to kill him on the Cross. Otherwise, punishment for blasphemy (The charge on Jesus) was stoning to death. But his enemies planned to kill him on the Cross to prove that he was a crsed person, far away from God.

    Jesus prayed to God to avoid that. His prayer was accepted and he was saved from death on Cross. that was a miracle for the sake of Jesus.

    I tell you that it is the law of God that he never brings a dead man back in this life. That is His method or well known way of God Almighty. It is easy for God to save Jesus from death on Cross than to kill him and then, against his own well known pratice, bring Jesus back to life. That is against His own law of nature.

    You please tell me if you have any law (or any other religion of the world) has a law as per their books about the dead people coming back to life. And what would they do when they will come back after few days or few years? Will they claim their property or their wives? Is there any such thing (words) in known book of any law??

    There is no such news in any faith. We tell you that God saved Jesus from death as per His promise to Jesus, and as a miracle for the sake of Jesus.

    Briefly: Jesus went on the Cross alive, he remained there alive, he was brought down alive, he went into the tomb alive and he remained there in tomb alive all the time. His friends cared for him very much in the tomb and afterwards. he came out of the tomb alive. He was seen by few people afterwards, alive, eating and talking… Then he deaparted from them on his mission….

    Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/04/religion/christianity/65-reasons-to-believe-jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross#ixzz2i0yU0aWs

  227. tonny

    October 22, 2013 at 2:38 pm

    Christianity Is … Religion Establish by Paul To Deceive People away From True Religion Of GOD. Dont Let Anybody Mislead You, Jesus Is Not The Founder Of Christianity. (The Word Christian Or Christianity,Jesus Never Heard It Before, He Never Talk It Before). The Real Founder Of Christianity Is Anti christ.
    The Apostle Paul Was A Deceiver! An Antichrist!
    Matthew 24:4-5 states you will be deceived by people that come using Jesus’ name. Consider the parable of the sower. Jesus was warning us then that as soon as His Gospel was preached, the enemy (Paul) would be there to steal the truth!
    Now before you throw a tantrum and wonder why I haven’t been struck by lightening straight from the throne room of God, I can prove to you that Paul was a Fraud using his own words. Of course, if you’re a female, and you’re in the ministry, you already know he was, you probably just didn’t realize it! For to be a female and in the ministry of the Lord, you had to turn your back on Paul to follow Jesus. Congrats! You figured it out! You refused to buy into the lie pie Satan tried to sell you as Paul!
    I’m going to make some startling points to wake your mind up into the truth, so hear me out, then I’ll go through and explain each one and give you all the proof you need to see for yourself that what I’m saying is indeed the truth.
    1 .Paul was Satan in the Flesh.
    2. Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus.
    3. Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from “revelations.”
    4. Paul’s account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying.
    5. Paul declared he was teaching another Gospel of which he himself was the Father.
    6.Paul declared he himself was the son of God.
    7. Paul issued his own commandments and laws for people to adhere to.
    8. Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did.
    9. Paul worked to destroy and undo everything Jesus and His disciples did and were doing.
    10. Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over!
    11. Paul said God’s law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who’s lying?
    12. Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14, something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5.
    13. Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21.
    14. In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what “he preached.” He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads – “That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.” He’s telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!”
    15. Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples.
    16. Paul claimed he himself was the son of God.
    17. Paul Supported and demanded Adherence to Iniquity (Discrimination), Jesus said to not let it be found among us! Who’s lying?
    18. Jesus: When Yahshua confronts the Adversary, he defeats him by saying, “You shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH, and Him alone will you serve.”
    19. Paul: When Paul is mobbed by people who wish to stone him for preaching against the Law of YHWH, he relies on the worldly authorities as a Roman entitled to the protection of the government rulers who save him (Dt. 8:3, Mt.4:4, Acts 22:26, 23:27.
    20. JESUS came to Galilee PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM (Mark 1:14, Matt.4:23).
    21. ‘PAUL’ CAME preaching, by his own admission, ANOTHER GOSPEL PROMOTING LAWLESSNESS and LICENTIOUSNESS many excerpts taken from disciplesofchrist.com.
    22. “I (‘PAUL’) testify to the gospel of the grace of god…ANOTHER GOSPEL…ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL “(Acts 20:24. 2 Corinthians 11:4. 1 Corinthians 10:23). PERVERTING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO LAWLESSNESS EVEN DENYING THE ONLY LORD GOD (THE FATHER)
    (Jude 4. 1 John 2:22).
    23. ‘PAUL’ CURSED JESUS CHRIST AND HIS APOSTLES AND DISCIPLES. If we or an angel from heaven preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than what we (Paul and his followers) have preached to you LET HIM BE A CURSE” (Gal 1:18).
    24. Indeed I PAUL say to you that IF ANYONE BECOME CIRCUMCISED Christ will profit you nothing ” (Gal. 5:2). too bad Paul! The circumcision was a sign of the covenant between Israel and Yahovah and you’re lie was exposed for what it was! Another false “divine revelation!” YET, despite his assertion that ‘Christ will profit you nothing’, ‘Paul’ himself, HYPOCRITICALLY ” took TIMOTHY and CIRCUMCISED HIM ” (Acts 16:3).
    25. YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH FURTHER WARNED “MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING: ‘I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER’(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10).
    26. JESUS said to them ” I SAW SATAN FALL, LIKE LIGHTNING, FROM HEAVEN” (Luke 10:18)
    “So the great DRAGON was cast out FROM HEAVEN, that SERPENT of old called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; HE WAS CAST TO THE EARTH AND HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM “(Revelation 12:9. Matthew 13:39)
    27. As SAUL journeyed he came near Damascus and suddenly A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN (LIGHTNING) shone around him and he fell to the ground”(Acts 9:3,4).
    YESHUA (JESUS) SAID YOU HAVE TESTED THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE APOSTLES AND ARE NOT AND HAVE FOUND THEM TO BE LIARS “(Revelation 2:2).
    28. YESHUA (JESUS) THE MESSIAH WARNED MANY WILL COME USING MY NAME SAYING:
    ‘I AM THE MESSIAH, RABBI, PASTOR, TEACHER’(Matthew 24:5. Matthew 23:8,10).

  228. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 27, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    The above post seems to be 100% true. It is true that Paul reversed the whole teaching of Jesus and his apostles. Jesus and his disciples lived all their life under the law of Moses a.s. Paul called that law a curse. It means Jesus and his disciples lived as cursed persons? God forbids such ideas. That is like abusing Jesus Christ.

    Paul taught against the sabath, against circumcision, against keeping away from swines. Paul did all that against the teachings of Jesus and Moses. Paul taught the Greeks to eat the flesh of swine. He did away with Sabath and circumcision. He said that the law of Moses a.s. was a curse. Yet he is considered the greatest leader in Christianity. The Christians do not know who they are following now.

    Paul himself said that after the flash, he did not go to damascus or to meet the disciples. He went to Arabia. Paul himself is witness to his flash of lightening. Nobody need to believe him. It is better to get rid of him and to get rid of all his writings that are attached to the holy Bible.

    It is very important for all Christians to realise that Jesus had never predicted (told any one) that Saul of Tarsus will become a friend and follower. That was the most important news that Jesus should have given to his followers. But Jesus gave the news of a comforter after himself. And Paul never claimed to be that comforter.

    Jesus did not appear to any of his beloved followers to tell them that Saul of Tarsus had converted and become a friend. So where is the proof of the convertion of Saul (Paul)? It is self made story of Paul.

    When he was caught and in danger of being killed, he saved himself by saying that he was a Roman citizen and needed protection.

    Some time later, it is well known that Paul was killed (beheaded). That was a bad end for him, sure bad, according to verse 20 of ch. 18 of Deut. see below:

    18:20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ Deut 18:20.
    ————————-
    The last words in above verse have been changed. In earlier versions of Bibles, it was written “that same prophet shall be killed.”

    So Paul was killed and it proved that he was a false teacher speaking for God. Please remember that such changes in the translation are wrong. Thy are bad. Such things should not be done otherwise it will harm the real meaning of the Bible.

    Killing is different to dying. Every one dies. But only some are killed. Please note such things and reverse them back to normal words.

  229. Marie Devine

    October 27, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    Your writings on Paul have truth in them. At best Christians do not discern Paul’s writings well. He cannot, at one point say the Law is good, just and holy and in another part say not to follow it. The Bible itself says Paul is confusing. As you said, we follow Jesus. No one can change Jesus’ word. Deuteronomy 13 speaks of a false prophet that will do signs and wonders but try to turn the people from God’s ways. God says that He Himself will send that prophet to prove the people whether they will follow His ways or not. We learn to determine right from wrong from realizing where our standard is. It is in Thus saith the Lord, and the words of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth who only did as God told him.

  230. IBRAHIM AYOUB MWASPOSYA

    October 27, 2013 at 9:37 pm

    my friends, if we real want to know the trueth about jesus, the trueth is very clear, especially to all who beleaves that jesus is from God, and if we all beleave the words of jesus himself yet we don’t beleave that jesus was dead, see how jesus himself condemns us (luke 24:26-27) with the effect to the response of those two people who were with him (luke 24:31-35).
    afterall jesus himself wants us to beleave that he was raised then how can a living be risen, is only a dead one can be risen (luke 24:44-46)
    the trueth is not guided by too many words or documents only, but the trueth is just so in anyhow, let us not be the fellowers of religious aspects, but the fellowers of the trueth, some one can ask what is the trueth by the way, the answer is very clear, jesus is the only trueth and not any one because the trueth is only one. (john 14:6)

  231. Sri Ganesh

    October 28, 2013 at 2:23 am

    Jesus’ birth was divine. He was blameless & sinless. His death, resurrection & ascension are facts of history. His death on the cross was necessary for the redemption of mankind and reconciliation with God. It is written that Jesus will return to establish God’s kingdom on earth.

  232. Zia Shah

    October 28, 2013 at 2:35 am

    Thank you my dear “faithful,” Christians for your tall and extraordinary claims.

    Now please present some evidence also, as “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs!”

  233. Alexandra

    October 28, 2013 at 2:41 am

    Christian ‘evidence’ is the Bible

    (and countless revelations, millions of saints, unexplainable healings in the name of Jesus… but that’s just the consequence of believing the Bible)

    you misquote the Bible, mis-interpret and mis-treat, noone can help here, sorry

    for the sake of the argument – you won’t get any stronger evidence than that, in any religion… your faith in Mohammad is also pure faith, no evidence of what happened in the cave can be shown, it is his word only… what’s the point in constant attempts of humiliating other people, just focus on proving the claims of your own scholars.

    the truth will set you free – the truth is not a negation of other filosophies/beliefs

  234. Gasore

    October 28, 2013 at 2:54 am

    You cant use your limited mind to talk of death and rising of Jesus. Even Quran accept that Jesus was a miraculous than any person living under the Sun. Jesus died on the cross to bear sin’s punishment for believers. Many people have doubted Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection from the grave, despite historical evidence. Muslims question, “Why would Allah require His prophet Isa to die?”

    The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).

    Scripture affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on the cross to pay the punishment for believing sinners. Let’s study the Scriptures, the Bible, to find out why Jesus’ death and resurrection provide the only entrance for sinners into paradise.

    The punishment for sin is death
    The Bible says the holy God created earth and man perfectly. But Adam and Eve fell to the temptation of Satan and disobeyed God. Ever since Adam’s sin, sin has infected the human race. Each person is guilty: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

    Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy but also includes lying, lusting, and stealing. Even the love of money or hatred of enemies is sin, according to the Bible. Good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His holiness, “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b).

    Having sinned against God, we deserve His punishment. A judge who pardons lawbreakers isn’t a good judge. Likewise, God will not overlook sin. He pours out His righteous wrath against sinners (Romans 2:1-11). Unbelieving sinners pay for their sin by suffering eternal death in hell: “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23a).

    The promise required an innocent death
    Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden and the tree of life, He gave them hope of salvation and paradise. He promised to send the woman’s offspring—Jesus—Who would conquer Satan (Genesis 3:15). Until then, men would sacrifice innocent lambs as a substitute for the punishment they deserved. Sacrificing an animal showed men’s humble acknowledgement that their sin required death and showed their faith in the future offspring and sacrifice from God—Jesus—Who would bear the believer’s penalty once and for all.

    The prophets foretold Jesus’ death
    From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Savior. Seven hundred years before Jesus was born, the prophet Isaiah described Him:

    “Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12).

    The prophet compared the coming Savior to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.

    Centuries later, Jesus fulfilled Isaiah’s prophecy. Although Jesus is eternally one with God, God the Father sent His Son to earth (John 3:16). Jesus is the promised offspring of the woman (Genesis 3:15), born in human flesh to the virgin Mary. God witnessed that Jesus is His own Son (Matthew 17:5). On seeing Jesus, the prophet John the Baptist cried, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).

    Taking the sin of the world as the sacrificial Lamb of God is why Jesus had to die. He came to take the punishment for sin—death.

    Jesus prophesied His own death many times: “And taking the twelve, he said to them, ‘See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished. For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon. And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise’” (Luke 18:31-33).

    God sacrificed Jesus for sin
    During the life of Jesus, crowds thronged around Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. They arrested Him and charged Him with blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God (Luke 22:70). Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him.

    On the cross, Jesus bore the punishment of sin. At His death, He cried out, “It is finished” (John 19:30b). Jesus finished paying the punishment for sin as the perfect Lamb of God.

    As Isaiah prophesied, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals and was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But Jesus didn’t remain in the grave. As He prophesied, Jesus rose from the dead, proving His victory over sin and death.

    Why did Jesus have to die?
    Jesus died for believing sinners. We cannot reach paradise on our own merit. Remember, the holy God will not let sin go unpunished. If we bore our own sins, we would suffer judgment in the flames of hell. But God sacrificed Jesus as the believer’s perfect Substitute.

    The Scripture says, “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified [made righteous/good] by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation [restored relationship].

    “Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. . . . So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:6-12; 18-21).

    Jesus died to provide the only way to eternal life. If God is showing your sin and need of Jesus, repent, turning from your sin and own way of trying to please God. You cannot fix yourself. Believing the Bible’s truth about Who Jesus is and what He did, trust in Jesus as Savior from sin and follow Him as the Lord of your life. He will lead and strengthen you through His Word, the Bible.

  235. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    October 28, 2013 at 3:29 am

    Sri Ganesh: “Death of Jesus was necessary for redemption of mankind”? Could God the Creator of us all not just ‘forgive’? (… and let us be born sin-less?)

  236. Sri Ganesh

    October 28, 2013 at 7:36 am

    Dear Rafiq, a very reasonable question you asked to which I would like to point you to the answer in the following website:
    http://www.derekprince.org/Articles/1000132017/DPM_US/Contact_Us/Divine_Exchange_form/The_Divine_Exchange.aspx

  237. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 28, 2013 at 10:24 am

    With due respect to Sri Ganesh, it is difficult to read a whole book. There is no need because Holy BibleNT is with us and we should follow the gospels first and do away with whatever Paul wrote.

    or, you should read the book of your choice and present the useful material here for us.

    There are Christian friends here who are writing that Jesus had risen. Now please take the word RISEN. What does it mean and why to take special meaning of the word RISEN and BEGOTTEN etc.? Why not take simple meaning?

    Risen does not necessarily mean risen from the dead. The word can mean rising from the lying down position, as Jesus a.s. was unconscious and he was made to lye down in the tomb (and treated with special medicines). He had appeared as if dead.

    will any gentleman please tell me if they have seen any dead man coming back to life, ever? Is there any rule, any information about such people who are really dead and they come back in this world again? In any religious book? Quran and Geeta and Bible and Torah?? What that man will do? And how he will be regulated? What are the laws for such a person in any religious books??

    Will he/she claim wife/husband and children and his/her property??

    There is no such thing and there is no coming back. Jesus was a man (of God)and we should treat him as a man.
    First of all, a god (Jesus) cannot die. Either he is God and he did not die. Or he is not god and he died on the cross. we cannot have both ways and say that Jesus was god and he died on the cross.

    Church is using secret meaning in bible which are not common among people.

    There is no need to pile up the sins of sinning persons on Jesus Christ. He was not born to do that. That was not his most essential mission and he was not preaching that.

    He was calling people to behave and return to God, the loving Father. He was hoping for the kingdom of God which was not of this world. It meant it was spiritual kingdom. He was hoping and his mother too was hopeful that people in large number will follow Jesus. In that way their sins will be taken away. They will repent and they will stop sinning.

    Sins of one person could not be taken away and piled up on another innocent person. There is no such rule any where that an innocent person be punished for the sins (or crimes) of another person. Will God Almighty do such an unjust deed?

    I say again that church has wrongly made it the most important mission of Jesus that he was to die for the others sins. That was not his mission and gospels are clear on that subject. Can any one show and prove from gospels that Jesus taught that he had come to die on the cross for others sins?
    The sinful generation put Jesus on the cross and he suffered much there.

    His mission, he had told, was for the lost sheep of Israel. The church is not talking about that at all. Let us forgive and forget Paul and get on with whatever Jesus Christ taught.

  238. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 28, 2013 at 6:23 pm

    After the excellent post of Salma javid Khan on 11 October, proving from Quran, hadith and old time scholars that Isa a.s.has died a natural death, I see the post of parvez sahib of same date, as follows:
    ————
    regarding the verse ; “The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; other messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.”

    it generally means that messengers have passed away before and that also isa will die as well.

    regarding the other ayat; “And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily messengers have passed away before him. (The Holy Quran, 3:145)

    its general and that all messengers will pass away. it does not mean that all messengers have dies ……

    parvez has translated about first verse as:
    other messengers have passed ON before him. Instead of writing passed away before him.

    About the second verse, Parvez has written:
    Messengers will pass away. See his words:

    its general and that all messengers WILL pass away. it does not mean that all messengers have dies…..

    That is dishonesty. Allah will take account of that from parvez sahib. We can see clear fraud on the part of Parvez sahib. If he is copy/ pasting from some book, even then it is his responsibility to check things.

  239. Ghulam Sarwar

    October 30, 2013 at 11:44 am

    The post from Gasore:
    The Scripture explains that Jesus Christ died for our sins: “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3b-4).

    Myself GS: The above seems to be a writing of Paul. We do not trust or beleive Paul. Please let us have something from Jesus on this subject.
    Paul says ‘he was buried’. That means Jesus was buried. But we know that Jesus was not formally buried. He was laid in room like tomb. No burial rites were performed. Paul is wrong about burying Jesus.
    ———————————————
    Gasore: Scripture affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on the cross to pay the punishment for believing sinners.

    GS: Which scripture?? The scripture of Paul or Jesus or disciples of Jesus?? There is no doubt that Jesus bled and suffered much on the cross.
    —————————————-
    Gasore: The punishment for sin is death

    GS. That is another problem. According to Bible
    Adam committed sin and punishment for sin is death. That is not written originally in Bible. As far as we know, the punishment was announced for Adam that he will eat the fruits of his labor and Eve was told that she will bear children with extreme pain. That was the punishment. Not death.

    Any how, their were many people living and dying before Adam. Death was there before Adam. Why they were dying? Did they also commit some sin?

    The problem is in the meaning of death which church does not clarify. But we Ahmadi Muslims understand it easily because we read the Quran. By death is meant spiritual death. So The punishment for sin is spiritual death.
    ———————————

    Gasore: The Bible says the holy God created earth and man perfectly. But Adam and Eve fell to the temptation of Satan and disobeyed God. Ever since Adam’s sin, sin has infected the human race. Each person is guilty: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

    GS: This is not from the gospels. I do not know who is the author of the above paras.
    —————————————-
    Gasore: Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy but also includes lying, lusting, and stealing. Even the love of money or hatred of enemies is sin, according to the Bible. Good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His holiness, “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b).

    GS: Good works can wash away the sins. The last sentence above from Isaiah is too brief to be understood. Prophet Isaiah will not say such thing.
    ———————————–

    Having sinned against God, we deserve His punishment. A judge who pardons lawbreakers isn’t a good judge. Likewise, God will not overlook sin. He pours out His righteous wrath against sinners (Romans 2:1-11). Unbelieving sinners pay for their sin by suffering eternal death in hell: “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23a).

    GS: again from Romans. Whatever is written above is not true. It is all wrong. Even a person can forgive another person. Why not God who is Almighty and free to do what he likes.

    Again “The wages of sin is death”. What kind of death? That is not explained.
    —————————————–
    Gasore:
    The prophets foretold Jesus’ death
    From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Savior. Seven hundred years before Jesus was born, the prophet Isaiah described Him:

    GS: There is no need to refer to Old testament which is treated as curse by the church. Old testament has a law that is not respected and followed by church. Jesus taught that new wine should not be put in old bottles. So there is no need to attach new testament with old testament, unless Old testament is fully respected and followed.
    ——————————

    Gasore: Jesus prophesied His own death many times: “And taking the twelve, he said to them, ‘See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished. For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon. And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise’” (Luke 18:31-33).

    GS: That is true because that is what Jesus knew and expected from the wicked generation. At that time he did not know that he will pray to God and he will be saved.
    After his prayer which was accepted and Jesus a.s. was informed that the cup will be avoided and he will not die on the cross. Then when all things appeared to go wrong, he was still hopeful. he shouted and reminded God Almighty about His promise of avoiding the cup. He said, “Eli, Eli lama Sabaqatani?” “O my Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?” And the Lord came to his help.
    ——————————–
    Readers can read the complete post of Gasore in earlier dates.

  240. Maria Barlett

    November 6, 2013 at 9:17 pm

    Dear ones,
    The proof that Jesus died is not enough,that he was resurrected is not enough, that he ascended s not enough, that he poured out his spirit at Penecost, is not enough – no proof would ever be enough without faith. But that also covers the “proofs” of the works of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Mohammed – where is the proof if not in the Word? In the 21st century the proof of these things, all of them resides first in the words of Scripture, then in the faith of the hearer and/or reader. When the Christian believer’s faith evolves to obedience in repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus, and experiencing the great Baptism of the Holy Ghost then faith becomes knowledge. Try it – it is for Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. As well as being the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen (Heb. 11:1), faith in Jesus is the ultimate unifying substance, and lack of it the ultimate dividing substance in existence.

  241. henree

    November 8, 2013 at 10:12 pm

    May God help those people whom the devil keeps using to broadcast the death of Jesus as a fiction.every thing that happened in the bible were God’s plan for us to refer to in times of trials. Before Jesus was crucified, he was beaten severly and made to carry a cross. He was later nailed to the cross a cross where he cried that God had forsaken him because he was in human flesh. He came in the form o human and not a spirit. Also when Jesus died, a very rich man demanded his body and he took him to a tomb, where special people are laid. The stone being rolled away from the tomb is a symbol for christians that no matter what the enemy has buried, God will send his angels to roll away the son and set us free. If Jesus didn’t die? Why then did he eventually ascend into heaven when his didciples saw him taken away into heaven? Can human flesh acsend into heaven like that?Jesus body was quickened by the Holy Spirit, that was why he was reffred to as living and not dead. JESUS IS ALIVE and someday we shaLl all see him return to take those who believe in him. w

  242. Moses

    November 8, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    Do you really believe God is all knowing God’s ways are not our ways If that God’s way of reconciling mankind to himself which it is because the bible said in Genesis 3:15 who is that seed that will bruise the serpents head the bible the old testament which you believe in and quote said that by your seed all nations will be blessed.if u are reading the bible for errors to prove your point you will surely find error because you don’t have the teacher to teach you the bible was written to show man God’s righteousness Man’s depravity God’s offer of forgiveness through Jesus Christ and man’s choice read the bible great scholars with an open mind and God will give you understanding if most of the prophecies of the old testament are being fulfilled dead and ressurection is one either disbelieve all the Bible which will make you disbelieve your quran also or believe the whole bible. May God open our eyes

  243. Br Gabriel

    November 9, 2013 at 2:33 pm

    I greet you all in the name of The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I have a great sorrow in my heart as I consider how men and women whom God loved so much (beyond human reasoning),Jn 3:16,have made a mockery and many are still busy with devilish reasonings(1Tim 4:1-2),making mockery of God’s fulfilled plan of salvion.2Pt 3:1-7;Heb 2-4.It is very sad,a very difficut pill to swallow how that men/women have joined in a well solidified and fortified partnership with satan,his angels(fallen)and all the forces of darkness to fight against The Almighty God.Have you not heard?Then listen now:Thus saith the Lord,Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker!…Ish 45:9-10.Satan fougth against God and failed,doomed for eternal destruction.Now human beigns have great opportunity through God’s only provided way of escape from eternal damnation,but,too sad for me to write,many have chosen death(eternal condemnation:M 16:16;Jn:3:17-19,34)rather than eternal life:Jn 10:24-30.Who can defeat God’s eternal purpose?Many have crossed the bother line of God’s peace,mercy,forgiveness and grace by blaspheming against the Holy Spirit of The Living God who raised Jesus from death.You that wrote sixty five reasons saying that Jesus did neither die nor resurrect,and supporters and writers and believers and promoters of such like are giving sixty five and more reasons why God should cast them into hell fire.His word,His blood,His Spirit is in me.Oh!I’m saved!All my brothers and sisters that are still in your strongholds He will surely make them free.Behold He is coming very soon!

  244. Zia Shah

    November 9, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    How soon is soon? According to the Bible, Jesus and St. Paul suggested that second coming of Jesus, will be in the lifetime of generation, alive at the time.

    We have been waiting for the second coming of Jesus in Christianity for 2000 years, to no avail.

    The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community does believe that second coming is metaphorical and the Founder of our community, was the second coming in Islam, to unite mankind under one God, in our global village.

  245. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 9, 2013 at 5:50 pm

    Br Gabriel has presented a very sentimental post. But not replied to any question. We Muslims love Jesus and his mother and his friends. We do not love the enemies of Jesus.

    The present teaching of church is not what Jesus was teaching. Jesus called God a loving father (for all). He did not preach about himself as the son of God.
    Some one has done immense damage to the real teachings of Jesus a.s.
    I would request Br Gabriel to read the post of Tonny of 22 October and try to reply to some allegations. The answer should be from the gospels only. We do not take anything from Paul because he was an enemy of Jesus and he preached his own gospel. Welcome. We want all christians to be good christians and that they should follow Jesus a.s.

  246. ikhan

    November 9, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    The Messiah Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (alaihissalaam) says that no one shall see Jesus, son of Mary, descend from the sky.

  247. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 10, 2013 at 8:59 pm

    I remember another important saying of Jesus a.s.

    He addressed his followers and said, “You will not see me again until you say, blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.”

    It means that jesus a.s. told his friends:
    1. That they will not see him again.
    2. The only way they will see him will be to recognise the one who will come in the name of the Lord. That will be the prophet Muhammad who spoke everything in the name of Allah. (Bism i Allah)
    3. If followers of Jesus a.s. will believe in Muhammad s.a.w.s. then they will be able to recognise Jesus second coming, i.e. Promised Messiah Ghulam Ahmad sahib a.s. of Qadian who claimed to be second coming of Jesus a.s.
    4. If the christians will not believe in Muhammad then they will not see the second coming of Jesus a.s.

    It needs some more explanation, as follows:
    There were two prophets in Children of Israel.
    1. Moses a.s. 2. Jesus son of Mary a.s.
    Moses a.s. predicted the coming of a prophet, the like of himself. i.e. will be a grand law bearing prophet, the like of Moses a.s. (see also Deut 18:20)

    Jesus a.s. predicted the coming of a messenger whose name will be Ahmad (the comforter). Please see New testament John 14:16 and Quran 61:7. That will be the like of Jesus a.s. i.e. a non-law bearing prophet, preaching non-violence and preaching peace + love.

    Hazrat muhammad s.a.w.s. appeared as the like of
    Moses a.s. and Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad a.s. came exactly the like of Jesus a.s.

    Christians have to believe in the prophet Muhammad in order to see Jesus again.

  248. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 3:44 am

    I am a Christian but can never believe in Muhammad ibn Amina as a prophet for he was not. He was just a charlatan.
    I find it difficult to understand what these 65 ‘facts’ or ‘reasons’ are meant to prove. Is it that Jesus did not die at all or that He did not die on the cross?
    I have come across many muhammadans who argue that He did not die at all because the remains are nowhere to be found. This line of argument negates sura 19(Mary):30. It says, “PEACE BE UPON ME, THE DAY I WAS BORN, AND THE DAY I DIE, AND THE DAY I AM RAISED UP ALIVE”. The question then is, at what point was this ‘RAISED UP ALIVE” anticipated? If Jesus did not die, why would the issue of being raised up alive have arisen?
    Mirza Ghulam Rabbi added in no small measure to the confusion, when he posted on Sept.18, 2013 “JESUS DIED A NATURAL DEATH AND HIS TOMB IS AVAILABLE TO SEE–”. He did not say anything about the skeletal remains. Such remains belonging to those who died before Jesus are still available. So, why are His not to be found? Having not said anything about His body, Rabbi avoids saying something about the quranic verse which holds that Jesus will be taken up and “stationed near to God”.What is the significance of such a position?
    Salma Javid Khan posted on Oct.11, 2013, “THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE QURAN WHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT JESUS IS ALIVE TODAY”.
    Pray, would He be dead while stationed next to God?
    On the whole, I find the attempt to deny Jesus’ godliness fruitless. According to the quran, every soul shall die. It is only God who cannot die. If Jesus did not die, then the quran confirms His deity. If on the other hand He died and was resurrected, then there is something extraordinary about Him.
    There is another argument that if Jesus died it meant that God died and the world would have been in chaos for three days. Both the Bible and the quran agree that God is Spirit. The Spirit cannot die. The muhammadans also believe that man is both spirit and flesh. When the flesh dies and decays, the spirit still lives on. As God in the garb of man, Jesus could not escape the vicissitudes that befall man, including death. That did not affect His nature as God. We don’t see God, but as Spirit He is everywhere. That is why HE is called omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. If, as muhammadans believe, that God can do everything, why would it be impossible for Him to appear as man? John wrote that in the beginning was the WORD which became flesh and dwelt among us.
    The quran talks about the spirit of God appearing as man before Mary to give her the tidings concerning the birth of Jesus. In deed the quran does not deny the fact that Jesus in flesh was the begotten of God. If God was His father, who would He be?
    To Rafiq A. Tschannen, I say that the greater drama was for God to have sent the ‘final prophet’ after the ‘Messiah’ who is the savior of mankind. Such a messenger was superfluous. There was no need for him after God had pointed out the way to salvation and eternal life. Doing such a thing would reduce God to the level of a fickle minded joker. I firmly believe that God is omniscient,omnipresent and omnipotent and always consistent. HE cannot perform a country dance of taking some steps forward and some backwards again.

  249. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 4:00 am

    The contention that Jesus did not die on the cross is not even worth wasting one’s time on considering the fact that those who lived close to His time have written to confirm the fact. It makes more sense to believe those who were nearer in time to the event than some illiterate charlatan who was born hundreds of years after the fact. To start with, being an illiterate he could not read the available texts or history. Then of course, he wanted some measure of legitimizing his claim of prophethood and the surest way of doing that was to concoct his own version of events and tag it ‘revelation’.
    Amazingly, with all his assertion of being the most beloved of his god, he did not get the ‘revelation’ that he would be poisoned at Khayabar.That will make an interesting topic for discussion.

  250. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 4:23 am

    In response to Ghulam Sarwar’s misconception of John 14:16, it will be necessary to quote the entire verse
    AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE WILL GIVE
    YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, THAT HE MAY ABIDE
    WITH YOU FOR EVER.
    A few truths are gleaned from this verse. The first is that there is no mention of any ‘Ahmad’. I have not seen it in any version of the Bible. The second one is that, assuming without conceding that Muhammad is the Comforter mentioned, that means that he came at the behest of Jesus. It shows that he was sent by Jesus his Master and Lord. He was subordinated to Jesus and any talk of him being greater than Jesus is absolute bunkum. This position is confirmed by other Gospels where the conversation Jesus had with HIS disciples on this issue is reported. In one of them He said “I WILL SEND THE COMFORTER”. The third one is that Muhammad died more than 1400 years ago while the Comforter Jesus promised lives forever. Since Muhammad has not lived forever, he is not the Paraclete who is described as “THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH”.
    Most importantly, Jesus said HE will pray the Father for this favor on getting to heaven. That makes stupid any notion that HE is not in heaven.

  251. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 11, 2013 at 4:26 am

    Namelee: Well, you are taking one small step in the right direction when you said that Muhammad (peace be on him) was sent (by God or his son is a minor detail). Anyway, as Muhammad (peace be on him) was sent we should study what he told us? Right? Therefore please join us in studying the Qur’an and the Hadith (sayings of the Prophet, peace be on him).

  252. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 11, 2013 at 4:27 am

    Namelee: About the ‘death on the cross’: What about the Shroud of Turin

  253. Zubair Khan

    November 11, 2013 at 4:44 am

    @Namelee, your narration is interesting. Religious world is full of people having ideas like you. Look at Jews until now they are unable to digest Jesus even as prophet of God. Rebuttal of each prophet is common amongst human being. Moses was called Magician. Similar allegations were against Jesus and to the Prophet of Islam. Not surprising if you raise same point for the Imam Mahdi and Messiah. Religious spiritual is entirely different ocean and no one can dive in it unless specially blessed by God Almighty. Worldly philosophers and think tanks also failed when tried to understand the depth of religious spirituality. Best way for you to turn to your perceived God and ask guideline from him. Most probably He will be guiding you on the right path if you request him with serious honesty.

  254. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 6:39 am

    Zia Shah claims that the second coming of Jesus has taken too long because He said He was ‘coming soon’ and then went on to say that Ghulam Ahmad was that second coming in muhammadanism.
    I can now see why the Ahmadiyyas are regarded as apostates by those in the mainstream of muhammadanism. Muhammad told his followers that the Day of Judgment was very near. He described how they would be able to recognize the prophets who were sent by God. None of those companions lived beyond the 8th century. Yet such a day has not come.
    Muslim 01:0287 “ABU HURAIRA REPORTED THAT THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH(MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM) SAID: BY HIM IN WHOSE HAND MY LIFE IS, THE SON OF MARY(MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM) WILL SOON DESCEND AMONG YOU AS A JUST JUDGE. HE WILL BREAK THE CROSS, AND KILL SWINE AND ABOLISH THE JIZYA AND THE WEALTH WILL POUR FORTH TO SUCH AN EXTENT THAT NO ONE WILL ACCEPT IT”.
    When did that happen? If you say that Ghulam Ahmad was Jesus’ second coming, did he fulfill the conditions laid down by Muhammad? How many crosses did he break and how many swine did he kill, and where did all that vandalism place?
    In verse 0289 it is added “–SPITE, MUTUAL HATRED AND JEALOUSY AGAINST ONE ANOTHER WILL CERTAINLY DISAPPEAR AND WHEN HE SUMMONS PEOPLE TO ACCEPT WEALTH, NOT EVEN ONE WOULD DO SO”.
    There is spite and mutual hatred among the various sects of muhammadanism today; not to mention their combined hatred and spite for those who do not subscribe to what they believe.That is why bombs are endlessly going off killing worshipers in mosques and others elsewhere. None of those things Muhammad predicted would happen at the soon coming of “the son of Mary” has occurred. Was Ghulam Ahmad’s mother named ‘Mary’? Somebody is certainly lying.
    If Ghulam Ahmad was the second coming in muhammadanism, then that has nothing to do with the rest of us. As for uniting all of mankind, instead of doing that, he has become the source of hatred and massacre. His own followers are preyed upon by the others who regard them as subhumans.

  255. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 6:44 am

    Scientists say that the earth has done about 90% of its lifetime. What remains is 10%. In a situation where time is measured in terms of billions of years, 10% qualifies to be described as ‘soon’. Therefore, 2000 years is rather miniscule.

  256. Namelee

    November 11, 2013 at 7:01 am

    Rafiq A. Tschannen, I never said that the Almighty God I know sent Muhammad. He may have been sent by his own god which has nothing to do with me.
    I was responding to a post by Sarwar who said that Muhammad was the Comforter in St John’s Gospel. My position remains that should that assertion be correct,then it has to be taken to its logical conclusion which is that Jesus sent Muhammad and the latter can not conceivably be greater that the former,just as a servant cannot be greater than his master.
    Concerning what Muhammad taught, I agree with Dr Ali Dashti and the Byzantine Emperor, both of whom said that he(Muhammad) brought nothing new. I have no need for his teachings.
    On the Shroud of Turin, it is the most scrutinized artifact in history. The end has not been reached. Further scientific study will prove the truth behind it.

  257. Zia Shah

    November 11, 2013 at 8:32 am

    Namelee the arguments that you are making here are small potatoes compared to what we have to offer here.

    Try this most recent article by me:

    Pope John Paul II and Me: ‘Truth Cannot Contradict Truth!’

  258. Marie Devine

    November 11, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Many prophets were sent with a message from God of what they were to accomplish. They could not accomplish it without knowing Bible Scriptures and their importance in the daily life. Each has a contribution though they did not fulfill all they could have. When people honor the prophet and ignore the word of God sent with him or refuse to help the prophet, the people stay in sin.

    Neither party of Islam follows God’s central message throughout the Qur’an 5:67-69: “Say,O People of the Scripture! You stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and the Gospel and all God sent down to you.” Muhammad was a prophet to Christians and Jews after the Roman Church changed times and seasons… holy days and calendar. Each, just like now, think they follow either the Old Testament or the New Testament; in reality, they follow neither.

    Leviticus 16, 23 and Exodus 20:8-11 give Sabbaths of no work including the weekly 7th day Sabbath. When Jesus says “Depart from me you workers of iniquity” it is because they never knew him as the word of God and only promoted ignoring what God said was forever. We must return to truth or we will all be lost.

  259. Br Gabriel

    November 11, 2013 at 7:43 pm

    Hear ye now the word of God again:Lk 16:19-31.23:And in hell he lift up his eyes,being in torments,and seeth Abraham afar off,and Lazarus in his bossom.24:And he cried and said,Father Abraham,have mercy on me,and send Lazarus,that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,and cool my tongue;for I am tormented in this flame. This same Lazarus that the rich man despised and rejected in his life time is the one he is now begging for him to be sent with a drop of water from the tip of his finger to cool his tongue in the unquenchable flame of hell fire .This same Jesus Christ whom The Father raised from the dead(Acts 4:8-12:Acts 17:30-31;Roms 8:9-11) is standing right now at the very door of the hearts of men/women of this generation begging to come in to give them eternal life Rev 3:20: but too many people have turned Him down and carry on with develish antichrist religions and all manners of sins,ungodliness ,evil,wickedness,unrighteousness in everything done under the sun .Who is the rich man?The rich man is one that have earthly riches,wordly wisdom,develish/wordly traditions,customs,cultures,philosophies,fashions,beauty,high degrees in education-secular or religious with big big titles viz:Vicarious Filli Dei,His Holiness,His Eminence,Most Reverend Dr,Reverend Father,Perfect Living Master,Guru,Rabbi,Llds,Ddds,Ttts,Doctors of Divinities, and many more;satan-given wisdom that teaches things contrary to the mind of God among both believers and non-believers in Christ and is not rich towards God in total humility,obedience,submission to God.What is the mystery of the poor man,Lazarus?1)Jesus Christ ,though He was rich,…2Cor 8:9;Ish 53:1-3;Phlpns 2:5-11;(2)All that are of the new birth in Jesus Christ in truth and in spirit:Jn4:23-24;Jn 3:1-6;2Cor 5:17;Mtt 5:3.And my beloved brother Apostle Paul was one of them after his conversion(Jesus Christ delivered him from antichrist satanic religious stronghold of his days holding many today)Before his conversion he was not:Acts 7:58;Acts 9:1-22;Acts 26:1-21.God used Noah to beg men in his days to repent but they turned him and God down.The same to Lot;Lk 17:26-31;Jesus was rejected before and is still rejected today by the world and the religions whose god is satan.God used Paul mightily as,even more than ,other Apostles(1Cor 15:8-11;2Pet 3:15-17)and vindicated him as well as others including Br William Marrion Branham of this present and last church age,the Laodecian church age.God used them to beg men,still begging the ‘rich’ men:2Cor:5:10-11.Apostle Paul whom Aposle Peter,one of the twelve Apostles and their leader for that matter,recognized and refered to as “our beloved brother”:2Pet 15,whom The Lord sent Ananias(Ats 9:9-18)to go and meet and told him exactly where he was in Damascus(this very Syria fighting war now),the same you and many other men/women have rejected the word of God he witnessed and labelled him antichrist and many other base names which are all lies.The same Paul that demons know and tesfied as they did of The Lord Jesus testified of the word of God that saves which I am testifying now(1Pet 1:23) upon which God gives His own seal to the saved soul(Mk 16:16;Jn 10:24-30;Ephs 4:30)This same Paul you have rejected will surely reign with Christ in glory.I hope you know that all that are written in the holy scriptures,the bible must come to pass?Mtt 24:35;Rev 22:6-7,16-20.Concerning Judas:Acs 1:15-26;Psm 41:9;Psm 109:6-8;Mtt 26:21-23;Mtt 27:3-10.All that is written concerning Jesus came to pass and many more will certainly come to pass:Lk 24:25-27,44-49;Jn 5:36-39. All that is written concerning God Almighty is true Gens 1:1-31;Gens 17:1;Psm145:13;1Chrncls 29:10-12;Heb 1:1-2;Ish 14:24(note that every scripture here is not all that is written)Everything written about satan and his angels is true.All that is written of God’s holy Angels are true.All that is written concerning man(human race)are true.So everybody is fulfilling all that is written concernig him in the bible ,the only true source of the true word of God to mankind(2Pet 19-21;2Tim 2:15;2Tim 3:1 3-17;Psm 12:6-7).He that is asking ‘how soon is this soon’ (concerning the second coming of The Lord Jesus Christ)is not asking me but he is questioning The Lord(Jn 14:1-4;Acts 1:9-11;Rev 1-3;Rev 22:12-13,20).So such a person is fulfilling what is written concernig him in the bible;for example 2Pet 3:3-10.
    He that is of God heareth God’s words:…Jn 8:47-49.

  260. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 11, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    We Ahmadis do not want the Christians to become Muslims. First we want them to be good christians. They should read their bible carefully. The 65 reasons were given from bible to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross. It does not mean that he did not die at all. He died at a good ripe age of 120 years in India.
    He had said himself that he had other sheep too. He had to go to them. Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. He never said that he came to go to sky.

    The majority Muslims say that Jesus went to heavens alive. They sing the same tune as the Church. They are wrong on many counts. They have no knowledge, no business in thsi affair.

    The remains of Jesus are very much safe in his tomb in Kashmir (India). There is no word in Quran ” AND THE DAY I AM RAISED UP ALIVE”. That raising up alive is in next life. Jesus has died like all other men and he will be raised up on the day of judgement.

    Indeed Jesus died a natural death and his tomb is in Sirinagar, kashmir (India) for every one to see. There is no confusion.
    There is no need of any skeletal remains of a person who is buried with respect and God Almighty kept his tomb safe from any vandalism. Jesus is resting comfortably with much respect in his grave.

    It is true, “THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE QURAN WHERE IT IS WRITTEN THAT JESUS IS ALIVE TODAY”.

    Jesus is not bodily stationed next to God. His soul is in high status in nearness to God but not his body. Jesus was true man of God. There was nothing extra ordinary in Jesus.

    We do not see Jesus any where for the last 2000 years. He has never communicated.

    In this world, Jesus was well known as son of joseph the carpentar. Jesus cried very loudly to God almighty to save himself. His plea was heard and he was saved from cursed death on Cross.

    Jesus was a comforter and he told his friends that God will give them another comforter. He said, “he had many things to say to his friends but they could not bear it.” He said that the spirit of truth will come, will lead them to all truth. It means that Jesus did not complete his mission in kana’an (Palestine).
    Jesus was subordinate to Moses a.s. He was bound to follow the law of Moses a.s. and he did that.
    There are many such truth which can be brought forward for the benefit of the Christians who are writing here. Jesus was the last prophet in the line of the Children of Israel.
    He had come to improve the life of the Jews only, to put them on the right track. But they rejected him. Too bad for them. Jesus never had any intention to start a religion of his own. Jesus a.s. was working under the commands of Moses a.s. All Christians should please reflect on these things. No doubt Jesus a.s. was the greatest israeli prophet after Moses a.s.

  261. sipho

    November 12, 2013 at 12:19 am

    … If Jesus said the following words:
    And he charged them that they should tell no man of him; where do u get the notion just from that line that he was hiding? All I see here is him asking someone not to tell about him. That has nothing to do with hiding. …

  262. Zia Shah

    November 12, 2013 at 12:30 am

    Why else would he say that when overall Jesus’ thrust is to spread the word and his message?

  263. Namelee

    November 12, 2013 at 3:33 am

    I think something funny is going on on this website. I replied to what Marie Devine and Ghulam Sarwar wrote and those replies have not been posted. Is there some censorship here?

  264. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 12, 2013 at 4:53 am

    Br Gabriel, you started off very well in your post about calling all wise rich people to God through Jesus a.s. But midway, you started Using Paul as an intermediate. Please Call through Jesus a.s. Jesus is enough to guide every one. Do not mix trails and tracks or change plans. You have handed over all blessings to paul and negated the blessing from Jesus a.s.
    Paul had many faults. He never respected mother Mary.

    Also, how bad you called the God of all other religions as satan. It means that you are a satan. Better you follow Jesus a.s. and repent as Jesus a.s. and John the Baptist were both calling people to God Almighty through repentence. (Not throgh the blood of Jesus).

    That story of Abraham and Lazarus preached by Jesus is true. The teachings of Jesus a.s. and Moses a.s. are still true today, if one wants to follow them truely. There is much benefit for mankind in those teachings. But what about the church (i.e. paul) which calls the teachings of Moses as a curse. Those teachings were from God Almighty.

    And today, we see one mighty (sinner) calling God of other religions as satan. How daring! God is one and the same of all faiths. There are not two or three gods.

  265. Marie Devine

    November 12, 2013 at 5:35 am

    The prophet Muhammad confirmed the Torah, the Gospels and all God sent down to the People of the Book, Christians and Jews. That which prophet Muhammad confirmed, in writing, says repeatedly that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected. The last part of each Gospel speak of the resurrection, his eating among them, showing himself alive to 500, and appearing on the shore of Galilee. Most of Apostle Paul’s writings mention the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The Book of the Revelation is Jesus speaking as a Spirit from heaven to the Apostle John.

    The real question is not did Jesus die; but why do Muslims follow Christians and Jews in not following the wisdom he brought down when he was alive. ONLY followers are saved because ONLY the wisdom of God is holy and saves from being enslaved to glorified slavery and lusts for unnecessary things.

    God has been revealing that this is the time of Judgment; Qur’an says only Allah can avert it: meaning if we turn to God’s truth He WILL avert it. The Bible says, I will cut My work short in righteousness.

    The God of Israel, whom Muslims call Allah (the God) gave commandments for holy Sabbaths of no work for any and gave curses for those who ignore His will. (BibleGateway.com has Arabic language Bibles etc. to search scriptures.) Exodus 20; Leviticus 23, 26; Deuteronomy 4:2
    Qur’an 5.67-69; 5:43-51 judge by Torah; 3:84-85; 42:14-16

  266. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 12, 2013 at 11:19 am

    Dear Marie Devine, we agree with you. Hazrat Muhammad confirmed what was given to Jesus and Moses a.s. But most of that has been changed and many new things have since been added and modified.
    Daily there is a new version of Bible coming out in which words are being changed to corrupt the original meaning. I can give some examples.

    Paul is no where. He completely reversed all that Jesus a.s. was working for. Jesus had warned about such wolves in sheep clothing.

    I, as Ahamdi Muslim, am ready for anything from Jesus a.s. but not ready for anything from Paul because he preached his own gospel. I am ready for Mathew,Mark,Luke and John.

    I will not follow any contradiction in the Bible or the Quran. That is the most I can do humbly and respectfully.

  267. Br Gabriel

    November 12, 2013 at 3:48 pm

    Beloved Ghulam Sarwar,The Almighty God of creation,The God of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob,The God of the Hebrews,The God of Isreal,is one:Gens 1:1-31;Exd 3:6;Exd 5:1-3;Ish 43:10-15;Rev 1:8. But the heathens worship strange gods;is it not revealed in the sctiptures?Num 25:1-3.Deut 7:1-6. Let me tell you and every other person that the major problem of man is :not believing in God and staying with Him in His word.That was the fall of satan and his angels.That was the fall of man too and is still the fall of man till tomorrow.And this fall is made possible through the nature of the heart:(1)satan’s heart : Ish 14:12-14;Ezk 28:17;(2)man’s heart(the unregenerated):Gens 3:6;Mk7:18-23;Jn 8:44;Atcs 7:51-54.Any man that retains such heart can never recieve the word of God because it has no place in him as The Lord Jesus said.And as soon as he hears the voice of a stranger he takes it.Cain had this heart .He did not believe the preaching of God to him so he went ahead and killed Abel.Did Jezebel repent after God vindicated His living word through Prophet Elijah?She did not.The religious groups in the days of The Lord Jesus Christ on earth did not believe Him.They had their own private interpretations of Him contrary to whom He really is according to the scriptures:Jn 5:38-39;Mtt16:13-19;Mk 8:27-30.Saint Steven spoke the pure word of God;rather than repent they killed him.The same gospel My Lord Jesus preached is the same all the Apostles,including Apostle Paul,preached .The kind of people that rejected the word of God they preached are doing the same today till tomorrow.And they are always very very religious,yet they reject God.He that rejects the gospel of redemption ,in part or in whole ,the bible true records of the death of The Lord Jesus Christ on the cross of calvary,His blood ,and His resurrection has made God a liar.The Lord God will not give such a person the baptism of the Holy Ghost,the seal of eternal life of God throughThe Lord Jesus Christ.Such a person is blindly following the spirit of delusion.He is not worshipping The God of Isreal.The people of this generation should drop religious organisations and church denominations and surrender to God before it is too late.If any of you have seen the horrible condition of hell fire ,and the glory of The Lord Jesus Christ which I have all seen you will certainly cast away all antichrist beliefs and surrender to The Lord as Paul did as I also have done and many others.Always never forget that everyone whether they be spirits or humans is fulfilling what is written concerning him in the bible.And I speak not to recieve men’s honour but God’s honour.If any man rejects the truth of God’s word his blood SHALL NOT be upon me.Finally,The Lord is still warning men NOW ,the gate of heaven is about to close.Thanks.

  268. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 12, 2013 at 9:45 pm

    Br. Gabriel. You are saying that the doors of heaven are about to close. Has the blood of Jesus run out?

  269. Namelee

    November 12, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    Interestingly you are ready to accept anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but not from Paul. The same Paul worked with those Apostles and none of them rejected him or his teaching.
    However, the truth of Christianity remains unshaken without your accepting all or any aspect of it. You should rather be worried about your muhammadanism.
    I know not less than 20 versions of the quran and they are not altogether in agreement on everything. I recently downloaded a copy of the authentic quran. It is called The 21st Century Enlightenment Quran. It makes very interesting reading.
    You even accept the teachings of some of the apostles, I do not accept anything from Muhammad talk less of his followers.

  270. Br Gabriel

    November 13, 2013 at 3:54 am

    Beloved Rafiq A.Tschannen.I did not say ‘doors of heaven’.I said ‘the gate of heaven’.You can equally call it ‘the door of heaven’.Mtt 25:10.Lk 13:24-28;Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many,I say unto you,will seek to enter in,and shall not be able.25 When once the master of the house(see Jn 14:2:In my Father’s house….)is risen up,and hath shut to the door,….The Lord Jesus is presently in His priestly office of the High Priest which was foreshadowed in the duties of the High Priest in the law of Moses.The earthly High Priest enters the holy of holies once every year,continuall

  271. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 13, 2013 at 10:25 am

    namelee, I am ready to accept anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but not from Paul. Paul did not work with Jesus (even one day) and with those Apostles. He said, “After the vision, I did not go back to Jerusalem. I went to Arabia.”

    The apostles did not accept him. Jesus never went near swines. Paul, in order to please the Greek polytheists, allowed the eating of swines flesh.

    Jesus had never allowed preaching to gentiles. Paul brought in that. So presently paul is the beloved leader (Imam) of Many Christians.
    Jesus followed the law. Paul said the law was a curse. Paul said, “You will be saved by faith alone.” That meant “No need to do good.” In fact he taught that there was no need to do any good work according to law.

    There is more of Paul in the BibleNT than of the real or unreal apostles of Jesus. Anyone need not believe in Muhammad. When one is not faithful to his real Master (Jesus) then what he/she will do for Muhammad!

    I tell again, most honestly and gently, that I enjoy reading the gospels (i.e. the biography of Jesus). If I deny that or I ignore that biography, there is nothing else left with me in the world about the good work of Jesus a.s. So I fully respect what little is left for me from the Church side in the bible.

    I fully believe that Jesus was from God. He said that he was sent by God. So he was a messenger. Any one who is sent with a message is a messenger and Jesus was truely a messenger for the Children of Israel. (Even though they did not accept him and do not accept even today.) As a reminder, Only the Muslims respect and accept Jesus.
    I duely honor and respect Jesus and his mother Mary as it is an article of my faith through Muhammad.

  272. Alexandra

    November 13, 2013 at 9:32 pm

    Where did you take this information about Paul from…? He worked with apostles, learned from them and met Jesus personally on the way to Damascus…

    anyway, false assumptions – false conclusions, very simple

    I have one more comment to the above litany of reasons why Jesus did not die… he was scared and prayed for not having to go through it and so on… One can see that clearly the author of this theory knows nothing (nothing!) about Christian teachings. Nothing about why Jesus actually came to earth, nothing why He had to die.

    Suggestions, that he could have saved Himself are actually as old as the Bible itself – vide the temptation on the desert, where satan comes and tempts Jesus “if you are really the Son of God tell the angels to give you all this wealth and make you a king”
    Jesus keeps answering instead “my kingdom is NOT from this world, get away from me”. The same happens when Peter comes with a disbelief that Jesus will die.

    Jesus was not any suicidal maniac, He was God incarnated. To tell the people how much God lives them, God himself became one of us. He came up and started the teachings. Read the sermon on the mountain, this is ‘new Tora’ as jews call it sometimes. The difference is that it is hem, Jesus, who people have to follow. He clearly says there He is God. This was what the pharisees could not accept.
    That’s why they wanted Him dead. When someone comes with a message from God, even God Himself (the Lord of Sabbath means exactly that!), and it is not popular – the majority kills Him.
    Yes, he could have saved Himself, but he would have contradicted the freedom and love He gave to a man. We are masters of our lives, we decide to kill or to save. If he restricted our freedom and called for angels He would have proven that we are merely puppets in His hands. WE ARE NOT.
    That’s why He allowed the man to do what the man wanted to – kill his own God.

    This is the biggest act of love anyone can give to another person.

    And God’s kingdom is NOT from this world, never been, never will be. Seeking God is not seeking to put Him in power and make the law follow any scriptures (sharia law), it is to follow God’d spiritual path. Whoever seeks political power seeks it for himself, not for God.

    I recommend that you actually read more about the life of Jesus and the meanings of His teachings. people who don’t know these basics cannot take a Bible today and think they can figure out what it actually means. They cannot. A very good book to read is Benedict XVI ‘Jesus from Nazaret’. If you are truly seeking the Truth start opening your eyes, go beyoud your own brain, as clearly one brain cannot comprehend it all. Especially if it does not know the context. Who were Jewes and why they waited for Massiah. What was Tora for them and how Jesus – claiming He is the Lord of Sabbath – stirred hatred.

  273. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 13, 2013 at 9:38 pm

    you say: (among many things): “That’s why He allowed the man to do what the man wanted to — kill his own God. This is the biggest act of love anyone can give to another person.” ??? For me this way of thinking is so much ‘out of this world’ that I can only say: “For you your religion and for me my religion”. (you may keep on killing your god(s) and consider it the ultimate love. I will try my humble best to worship mine…)

  274. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 13, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    We are going round and round in circles. The belief in Jesus is an article of faith for all Muslims. While denialof Muhammad as a man of God seems to be an article of faith for the Christian friends. Denial of Muhammad and playing down the Quran (for whatever reason) is important for the Christians(?).

    The best thing to do is that each one of the Muslims and Christians should read each others books i.e. the holy Bible and the Quran. That will make us wiser and more comfortable and co-operative.

    I as Ahmadi Muslim, attest to the truth of Jesus message (even though it was only for the Jews) and the message was the best. His every word and deed was excellent. So, I am ready to go back to whatever Jesus taught and Practiced. It was the right thing.

    Another important thing is, Jesus said, ” I am the way”. But I do not see the Christians walking on the path of Jesus. They are walking on their own way, quite different to the way Jesus talked and walked.

    Yet I believe that it is none of my concern to blame any one. I will walk according to my belief and I will let the Christians to walk the way they like. I will harbor no ill feelings against any Christian. It is upto the Christians to believe and freely follow what they find is best for them.

  275. Alexandra

    November 13, 2013 at 11:03 pm

    He allowed a man to execute the free will He Himself gave a man in the beginning – if he did not then He would have contradicted Himself. This is the expression of Love.

    As noone can force another one to love Him.

    However God cannot be killed by a man, He resurrected… that’s His victory over satan… satan stirred people to kill the only One who came with Truth, and Jasus raising from death proves that death has no power over Him… now it is only up to each of us who we follow – Jesus who rises from the dead or satan who wants us to reject our God.

    Everyone takes this decision in their heart. There is no third way. Jesus is the only way to the Father.

  276. Namelee

    November 14, 2013 at 12:31 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    Muhammadans believe in Jesus because the quran asks them to do so, even though in a perverted form. The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad. So, I cannot believe in him. I recognize that he existed but nothing more. If anything, my impression of him is very negative.
    I have read the quran copiously but I have no intention of being a ‘hafiz’ or making an occupation or hobby out of it.
    One of the things that the Lord taught us is to love our neighbors as ourselves. If the Christians were not living in the way that HE commanded, your movement, which is being hunted to extinction by fellow muhammadans, would not be propagating freely in the West today. You are safer there than you are in any muhammadan country. Do I understand it that the Ahmadis are not allowed to perform the hajj and are not regarded as part of the ummah? Hajj is a rite which is required of every muhammadan. Why do they deny you?
    If you do not harbor ill feelings for Christians, others do. That is why Christians are killed daily without the slightest emotion, yet they do not retaliate because the Lord says that vengeance is HIS.

  277. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 14, 2013 at 12:42 am

    How nice it would be if what Namelee says would be true (that Christians do not retaliate). On 9/11 about 3000 died, the retaliation cost hundreds of thousands of lives (not in Saudi Arabia, where most of the hijackers were supposed to come from, but in Afghanistan and Iraq (and Yemen, and Pakistan). (who was really responsible for 9/11 is another question…)

  278. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 14, 2013 at 12:44 am

    Namelee: yes, the members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community do appreciate the freedom of religion practiced in Western (ex-Christian) countries. We are grateful. We however continue to strive for ‘Justice for all’. We condemn what is not quite just in the East and the West. (as you will have noticed reading The Muslim Times).

  279. Tara Adnan JD.

    November 14, 2013 at 2:46 am

    Great information! (the English writing could use some work however)
    #66. Jesus, outside of the tomb,is disguised as a gardener (why? what’s he hiding from?) Mary Magdelene said to him “where have you taken my Lord?” and when Jesus spoke Mary looked at him and said “Rabbi?” (teacher)
    #67. Jesus prays before he is arrested “Let them be one as you and I are one.” But he can not be one PHYSICAL boy with God. He was praying for the disciples and praying for them to be “one in Spirit” (in cause)
    #68. Jesus according to the Christian and Jewish beliefs, is half of God (immortal) and half of Mary (mortal) therefore… Jesus is HALF IMMORTAL and CAN NOT DIE!
    #69. God, the almighty, most powerful, all knowing, could forgive mankinds’ sins without the brutal death of his son.
    #70. There is many contradictions regarding the position of Jesus in the holy bible, the first being that he is God reincarnate, the second being that he is the son of God. Either he IS God or he IS the son of God- he can not be both.
    #71. During that period of time, no physician examined his body, no postmortem was accomplished, only the word of a Roman soldier who declared Jesus dead…there is no evidence that suggests that he actually DID die- other than the scriptures!
    #72. Jesus himself TELLS US that he IS NOT God! “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” And “My Father is greater than I””Father” as Jesus spoke of him, was NOT meant to mean birth-father, dad, etc. God has no need of earthly things such as procreation! Father is translated to “Abba” in his ‘actual’ words. father in this case is like that of the “royal” father, the pope for instance.
    Peace…
    Tara
    Just thought I’d add my 2 cents of knowledge…

  280. Namelee

    November 14, 2013 at 3:23 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    Your advise that one should be acquainted with the religious texts is very apt. Had you done so, you would have corrected some of the misgivings expressed in your post of 13-11-13.
    Paul did not introduce the eating of swine. It was Peter who had a vision in which God told him not to call anything HE has created ‘unclean’.
    Muhammadans eat pork as a matter of necessity when there is nothing else to eat. It does not kill them. The Jews will not touch it no matter the extenuating circumstance. Why then the hypocrisy of condemning those who eat pork on a regular basis?
    JESUS commanded that the Gospel be preached throughout he world and those who accept be baptized into the Fellowship.He Himself preached to the Roman centurion and healed his servant. He preached to the Phoenician woman and healed her child. He preached to the Samaritan woman at the well and used a Samaritan man as HIS example of universal brotherhood.
    It was Muhammad who said that he was sent to the Arabs who never had a prophet before. I am not an Arab. So his message is not for me. He even confirmed that JESUS is GOD’s mercy to mankind.
    In Acts 10:44-48, Peter preached to the crowed among whom were Gentiles who also received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before being baptized with water.
    Paul worked with the other Apostles. in 1 Corinthians 1:12 he writes “NOW THIS I SAY, THAT EVERYONE OF YOU SAITH, ‘I AM OF PAUL; AND I AM OF APPOLOS; AND I AM OF CEPHAS; AND I AM OF CHRIST-”.
    In John 1;42 JESUS identifies ‘Cephas’ as Peter.
    When Paul mentioned ‘Cephas’, he was referring to Peter.
    Peter himself attested to their working together. He says in 2 Peter 3:15″–EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO ACCORDING TO THE WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM HATH WRITTEN UNTO YOU. Then in verse 16 he says “AS ALSO IN ALL HIS EPISTLES, SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE THINGS–.
    Paul in writing to the Colossians 14:4 says “LUKE, THE GREAT PHYSICIAN, AND DEMAS, GREET YOU”.
    If the Apostles were not working with Paul, would Peter have written about his teachings and epistles and would Paul have sent greetings from Luke whose Gospel is one of those you choose to read?
    As I said before, your acceptance or rejection of St Paul does not affect Christianity in any way.
    Paul talked about faith as the cornerstone of one’s belief.
    In 1 Corinthians 13:2 he says “–IF I HAVE NO CHARITY, I AM NOTHING”
    Verse 8 “–CHARITY NEVER FAILETH”.
    14:1 “FOLLOW AFTER CHARITY AND DESIRE SPIRITUAL GIFTS”.
    The Holy Bible teaches that love and charity are paramount and faith without works is dead. Paul never departed from these basic principles.
    Try and get your facts right so that you will not mislead others.

  281. Joseph

    November 14, 2013 at 5:55 am

    my beloved Mirza Ghulam Rabbi , i see u writing with such intelligence and brilliance like you know God.s mind and how he thinks. I see your why’questions requiring answers that would mean we are as wise as God. I congratulate you. peradventure you are right I imagine how happy God will be considering that these questions actually help make the world a better place and end the bloodshed caused by our brothers in the name of God.but peradventure you’re wrong do you think God will go through the trouble of answering the questions of a noble.intelligent and humble servant like you? With your brilliance and humility I expected your last question to be based on your painful research on when Jesus actually and finally died. But not to worry you’ll be answered when you actually and finally die.

  282. Namelee

    November 14, 2013 at 6:36 am

    Tara Adnan JD,
    The information is not great in the very least. It shows abject ignorance. I will address the issues you have raised.
    66. Jesus did not hide. John 20:11 “BUT MARY STOOD THERE WEEPING OUTSIDE THE TOMB—SAYING THIS, SHE TURNED ROUND AND SAW JESUS STANDING, BUT DID NOT KNOW HIM”. The simple reason for that was because Mary was weeping. Nothing is said about anybody hiding. Those of your tribe who claim to be experts are actually ignoramuses at best or outright fakes.
    68. Jesus as GOD can take any form. Your quran asks if there is anything impossible for God to do. If God cannot take the form of man , die and conquer death, then death is greater than Him and He cannot do everything.
    69. God can warn and save mankind without having to send a ‘final prophet’ (rude words censored).
    70. Jesus is all those. As man, He came as God’s reincarnate. As Son of GOD, HE came as the “WORD AND SPIRIT OF GOD”. Check your quran.
    71. You did not state which hospital performed autopsies at that time where Jesus would have been taken to for certification of HIS death. It was not just the Roman soldier who pronounced Jesus dead. Both the Roman and Jewish authorities were satisfied of HIS death before authorizing burial. Then the Roman governor put a seal on the cover of the tomb and stationed soldiers on guard duty with strict instructions not let anyone get near it.
    72. Jesus said repeatedly that HE and the Father are one. Seeing HIM one sees the FATHER. The spirit of man, though a part of him, still lives on when man dies.Jesus as the Word and Spirit of God can have independent existence. When HE told the young ruler ” Only God is good”, He did not say, “I am not God”. He said that to the man because HE knew all about the man. The young ruler was not ready for what he asked for. When told to go sell his wealth and distribute the proceeds to the poor, he went away very sad and disappointed. That was not what he expected.

  283. Namelee

    November 14, 2013 at 6:43 am

    Joseph,
    That is nice of you. The author of the write up is not basing his argument on facts but on “reasons to believe”. To believe is a highly subjective thing. Everybody has something to believe in. But facts are solid. That is what is lacking here.

  284. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 14, 2013 at 6:56 am

    not sure why Namelee has to be so rude. Is it a religious or cultural ‘thing’? Her writings are becoming repetitive. Can we close this conversation?

  285. Namelee

    November 14, 2013 at 10:11 am

    You have the freedom to say what you like about someone’s religion without considering that to be rudeness. But when something is said about your religion, even when it is quoted from your religious texts, then it is ‘rude’.
    I have noticed before now that my posts were censured. Where is freedom of speech? So my core beliefs can be questioned and ridiculed, but, no, I cannot speak out about your own. You expect me to keep quiet and swallow all the scorn you pour on my religion. What you do may be religious or cultural. Mine is a reaction to what you do. It has nothing to do with culture or religion.
    Where the same issues are repeated, the same answers will be elicited.
    I am a man; not a she.
    It will no surprise me if my comments are not posted again. Such is the ‘religious and cultural thing’.

  286. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 14, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    namelee, your reply to comments of Tara Adnan has fallacy, see your words below:

    72. Jesus said repeatedly that HE and the Father are one. Seeing HIM one sees the FATHER.
    My comment:That is true. But you are taking wrong meaning from that. Even your Trinity also does not count Father and Son as one. They count them as two. That makes Trinity with the holy ghost. If Father and Son are one then there is no Trinity.
    ————————————-
    He did not say, “I am not God”.
    My comments: You have misquoted the real words of Jesus i.e. “Why do you call me good? There is no one Good except the One God.” It means clearly that Jesus was denying that he was good or he was god. But you have perverted the words.

    ——————————–
    More comments: Jesus may be a word of good news to Mary, the mother. Quran states that there are innumerable words of God, if written and used the trees as pens and the Sea as ink, the ink will fall short (will not be enough) even if more oceans were added.

    Jesus was almost hiding after his ordeal of the Cross which he had survived. He could never appear in public and he never did. He met his own disciples only after walking carefully 70 miles to Galilee. He had to suffer hunger and hide outs.

    If he was seen alive, it could be very dangerous for him and for many others. He was a condemned man.

  287. Namelee

    November 15, 2013 at 1:19 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    At the risk of being accused of repetitiveness, I use the example of man again to explain the Holy Trinity. Man has body, soul and spirit. When the body dies, the spirit and soul still live on. Saying that Jesus and the Father are one does not exclude
    the Holy Spirit from being part of that one.
    You have to understand that it is not everybody who goes about blowing his trumpet. The Jewish custom, into which Jesus was born, frowned at such immodesty. That was one of the reasons the Pharisees were not a popular group.
    To demonstrate how people understood Jesus, we have to resort to what the Bible says.
    John 5:18″THEREFORE THE JEWS SOUGHT THE MORE TO KILL HIM, BECAUSE NOT ONLY HAD HE BROKEN THE SABBATH, BUT SAID ALSO THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD”.
    John 2;24″BUT JESUS DID NOT COMMIT HIMSELF UNTO THEM, BECAUSE HE KNEW ALL MEN.
    Verse 25″AND NEEDED NOT THAT ANY BODY SHOULD TESTIFY OF MAN:FOR HE KNEW WHAT WAS IN MAN”.
    Even with modern science, you may remember the last time a man knew what was or is in another man. Such knowledge dwells with God only.
    John, the same Apostle whose Gospel you accept, wrote the Book of Revelation where Jesus calls Himself ‘THE ALPHA AND OMEGA’, ‘THE BEGINNING AND THE END’, ‘THE FIRST AND THE LAST’, ‘THE ONE WHO WAS SLAIN BUT NOW LIVES FOREVER’.
    Prophet Isaiah, recognized in your religion as one of the early prophets, had this to say:
    7:14 “THEREFORE THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL GIVE YOU A SIGN: BEHOLD A VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE, AND BEAR A SON, AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED IMMANUEL (MATTHEW 1:23 EMMANUEL MEANS ‘GOD WITH US’)”.
    I have not read an account of another virgin birth in the quran nor anywhere else. So, Isaiah was referring to the birth of Jesus. Then he said
    9:6″FOR UNTO US A CHILD IS BORN, UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN; AND THE GOVERNMENT SHALL BE UPON HIS SHOULDERS: AND HIS NAME SHALL BE WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE”.
    I am always amused when muhammadans differ on the Holy Trinity when the quran is replete with innumerable references to it. Let us for purposes of argument, assume that allah is God. There are hardly chapters in the quran where allah does not use the plural pronouns of “we, us, our, ourselves” to refer to itself. Such plurals indicate more than one entity or organism.
    There has been an unsuccessful argument that those plurals are used because of the “plurality of majesty”. That is not tenable because I have heard sovereigns use the singular pronouns such as “I,ME,MY, MINE” in their speeches. I have never heard the Queen say ‘OUR GOVERNMENT” in her speech. She normally says “MY GOVERNMENT”.
    The greatest proof for the existence of the Holy Trinity is found in the quran,just assuming that allah is God.
    Your are introducing words into the quran. It specifically calls JESUS the “WORD” which is quite different from what you are trying to downplay.
    Sura 3(Imran):40 “Mary God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary–”. In sura 4(Women):165 He is described as the Word and Spirit of God.That is quite different from your word written with pen and ink. The words ‘WORD and ‘SPIRIT’ start with capital letters signifying their peculiar nature.
    There was a deliberate attempt by Muhammad to diminish the status of Jesus which has been imbibed by his followers. Jesus is mercy to mankind and not just HIS mother. Sura 19:20″–AND THAT WE MAY APPOINT HIM A SIGN UNTO MEN AND A MERCY FROM US: IT IS A THING DECREED”.
    After the crucifixion, Jesus was at the Sea of Tiberius where he met the disciples who had gone fishing. The sea was not a private pond or pool which would have been exclusive to the disciples. Others were also there and saw HIM. Therefore, the issue of HIS having to go into hiding does not arise. There were other instances when those outside the discipleship also saw HIM.

  288. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    November 15, 2013 at 2:00 am

    what is the difference between the soul and the spirit?

  289. Br Gabriel

    November 16, 2013 at 1:17 am

    Beloved Rafiq.A Tschannen,my Nov 13,2013 was unfinished which I completed Nov 15,2013 but I don’t know why it is not on TMT.I attended to your question:”Has the blood of Jesus run out?”Listen again;the High Priest after performing his duties in the holy of holies comes out to the people whose sins are forgiven by God and God relates with them as if they have never sinned before.But the remembrance of sin is still there.The Almighty God has the plan of the redemption of man concluded before the foundation of the world that it must be by Jesus Christ.:Rev 5:5-6(mark this word in verse 6:a Lamb as it has been slain.Compare Jn 1:29;Psm 110:4;Heb 7:21-24;Heb 9:11-15.all talking about ny Lord Jesus Christ. As the earthly High Priest comes out from the inner veil so He will come out to receive those whom He has redeemed by His blood.This is His second coming. Then this scripture :Lk 13:24-28,and all will be fulfilled. My belovd Ghulam Sarwar said he is ready to take any thing from Mtt,Mk,Lk and Jn;did he take this one. And my beloved Ziah Shah have more than enough evidence while his sins and all, that agree with his claims cannot be forgiven in this life nor in the world to come.They lied against The Holy Spirit of God that raised Jesus from the dead(Jesus died at the cross of calvary).,Thanks.

  290. Michael

    November 19, 2013 at 9:46 am

    The Roman flogging or scourging that Jesus endured prior to being crucified normally consisted of 39 lashes, but could have been more (Mark 15:15; John 19:1). The whip that was used, called a flagrum, consisted of braided leather thongs with metal balls and pieces of sharp bone woven into or intertwined with the braids. The balls added weight to the whip, causing deep bruising and contusions as the victim was struck. The pieces of bone served to cut into the flesh. As the beating continued, the resulting cuts were so severe that the skeletal muscles, underlying veins, sinews, and bowels of victims were exposed. This beating was so severe that at times victims would not survive it in order to go on to be crucified.

    Those who were flogged would often go into hypovolemic shock, a term that refers to low blood volume. In other words, the person would have lost so much blood he would go into shock. The results of this would be

    1) The heart would race to pump blood that was not there.

    2) The victim would collapse or faint due to low blood pressure.

    3) The kidneys would shut down to preserve body fluids.

    4) The person would experience extreme thirst as the body desired to replenish lost fluids.

    There is evidence from Scripture that Jesus experienced hypovolemic shock as a result of being flogged. As Jesus carried His own cross to Golgotha (John 19:17), He collapsed, and a man named Simon was forced to either carry the cross or help Jesus carry the cross the rest of way to the hill (Matthew 27:32–33; Mark 15:21–22; Luke 23:26). This collapse indicates Jesus had low blood pressure. Another indicator that Jesus suffered from hypovolemic shock was that He declared He was thirsty as He hung on the cross (John 19:28), indicating His body’s desire to replenish fluids.

    Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side (probably His right side, piercing both the lungs and the heart), blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).

  291. Zia Shah

    November 19, 2013 at 2:55 pm

    The torture before crucifixion has been exaggerated in recent years. Here is the account of the Gospel of Mark from King James Version, which gives a more realistic picture:

    And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head, and began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him. And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. (Mark 15:17-20)

    In the Gospel of Luke there is no torture between the verdict and crucifixion.

    Dear Michael, is it possible that you read all of the above with your pre-conceived ideas, otherwise there is plenty in here, to make you think out of the box.

    As readers we should always follow Sir Francis Bacon’s advice, “Read not to contradict … but to weigh and consider.”

    Otherwise, we remain as ignorant after reading something as we were before reading it.

  292. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 19, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    My reply to all Christian friends: Jesus, holy Spirit and father form the Triune God. That is Trinity. If Father and son are one, as it is being told here, then there is no Trinity. It may only be twinity. Count Father and son as One. Add the holy ghost and it becomes total two. Not Three.

    I had told that we Ahmadis understand and do believe that the Father and son are One. It is not physical matter. It is a Union in principle. they are in accord. The church does not tell the truth and keeps much secrets.
    Like the word “begotten” which is used in the Bible (mathew ch 1,line 1) reads: Abraham begat Issac, Issac begat Jacob.
    Do we believe that Jesus was begotten by Father in similar manner? Nobody explains it.

    The various writers (bloggers) here have gven more than 65 reasons to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross. He was alive when brought down. His legs were not broken. He was not formally buried. No burial rites were performed. He was laid in a comfortable place. He was well looked after with help from medicines.
    The physician in attendance knew very well that Jesus was alive. Jesus had only fainted on the cross.
    His enemies (the Jewish elders) could not kill Jesus on the Cross. How can the church explain that a god can die?

    The last thing: He had said that he had other sheep too which were not of the present lot. He knew them and had to go to them too..” Those sheep were in Afghanistan and Kashmir.
    Jesus must have to go to them and not go to the father in heaven. That would be against his own words.
    How many contradictions are in the beliefs of the Church people! How we can point them out again and again!
    Here, we have two situations. The one from the Christians that Jesus died on the Cross and got up, became alive.
    The other is from the Muslims that Jesus did not die at all. He had fainted and appeared to be dead.
    Any one can decide which case is more natural?
    There is a word in Bible that Jesus had risen. That word “Risen” is another one like the word “Begotten”. Nobody from the church will explain the meaning of risen and begotten. I beleive that he rose from the place where he was laid. And I am happy that his prayer was accepted and his enemies were not successful. They could not kill him as they had planned (The Crucifixion).

    Mind you, this is mentioned in the Quran. And news in Hadith, that Jesus was saved and Jesus a.s. later died a natural death at a good age of 120 years. We Ahmadis support Jesus and his good end, not the bad end presented by paul, i.e. making Jesus as a man-God and killing Jesus for supposed sins of others.

  293. OLUSOLA

    November 19, 2013 at 11:58 pm

    Hi all,
    I do not intend to argue, or attempt to win an argument and lose your soul.
    In fact I’m just responding to the caption because I believe Christ died on the cross for your sin,
    Why? He said he would, there are eyes witnesses, the disciples confirmed it and when he rose up again he was seen.

    My question or what I want every disbelieving Muslim to “think ”
    About is,
    Even if I were not a believer of Christ death, how could I have believe a Quranic counter-account of Christ death written Over 400 years by one author who had never met Christ and rubbish those of his own words written by several of his disciples who saw him, which confirms those of prophets before them?

    Sometimes I think dogmatism fumbles with our brains. God created the brain and he is not against our use of it, he is only above it. Even if you don’t believe, Please think again.

  294. Namelee

    November 20, 2013 at 1:01 am

    Zia Shah,
    Can you read the Gospel of John? Here is what it says in 19:1
    THEN PILATE THEREFORE TOOK JESUS AND
    SCOURGED HIM.

    3.AND SAID, HAIL,KING OF THE JEWS! AND THEY
    SMOTE HIM WITH THEIR HANDS.
    The word ‘scourge’ is defined as “A WHIP USED AS AN INSTRUMENT OF PUNISHMENT”.
    As a verb it means “CAUSE GREAT SUFFERING TO”.
    ‘Smote’ is the past tense of ‘SMITE’ which is defined as “STRIKE WITH A FIRM BLOW”.
    There were many soldiers raining blows on HIM.
    Why do you think that John does not give a vivid account of what happened? The mere placing of the crown of thorns on His head alone was enough to cause loss of blood and excruciating pain. If you are in doubt of this, then I challenge you to try it.
    You say that the church is not telling the truth. John was an eye witness.

  295. Zia Shah

    November 20, 2013 at 1:15 am

    Namelee a typically Christian apologist’s move, just emphasizing what you like to believe and ignore every thing else.

    The recent Christian scholarship has accepted that none of the Gospels were written by eye witnesses.

    Mark was the first Gospel and John was not written until 100 AD.

    Gospels do not agree on torture or its severity.

    But, try this:

    Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension

  296. Namelee

    November 20, 2013 at 2:11 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    At least you agree with the fact that Jesus was crucified which is contrary to what the quran says. It holds that somebody else was substituted at the point of crucifixion. Who it was, the quran does not say but leaves it to wild imagination. Were that to be correct then the “all knowing” allah would have named the substitute. For that reason, Judas has been freely touted by the main stream sects.
    You claim that Jesus did not die but only fainted. That had HE died the physician who attended to HIM would have known. The question is, who was that physician? You further say that HIS bones were not broken which indicated that HE had not died. Matthew who was present says in 19:50 “JESUS, WHEN HE HAD CRIED AGAIN WITH A LOUD VOICE, YIELDED THE GHOST”.
    Mark 15:37 “AND JESUS CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE, AND GAVE UP THE GHOST”.
    Luke 23:46 “AND WHEN JESUS HAD CRIED WITH A LOUD VOICE, HE SAID, ‘FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMEND MY SPIRIT’: AND HAVING SAID THUS, HE GAVE UP THE GHOST”.
    John 19:30 “WHEN JESUS THEREFORE HAD RECEIVED THE VINEGAR, HE SAID, ‘IT IS FINISHED’: AND HE BOWED HIS HEAD, AND GAVE UP THE GHOST”.
    All the four Gospel writers are in agreement that Jesus had died for that is the meaning of ‘yielding’ or ‘giving up the ghost’. Further proof is given by His bone not being broken as those of the thieves and the reason is given for that. John 19:33 “BUT WHEN THEY CAME TO JESUS, AND SAW THAT HE WAS DEAD ALREADY, THEY BRAKE NOT HIS LEGS”.
    The reason for the breaking of the legs of a crucified man was to hasten his death. Jesus being nailed on the day next to the Sabbath could not have been left on the cross till the Jewish holy day. The thieves did not die because they had not been subjected to scourging as JESUS had.
    According to the Jewish custom, a corpse had to be anointed three days after the burial. The women who went with various ointments to the grave that morning were going to prepare what they thought would be a dead body. They all saw HIM die on the cross.
    After having claimed loudly that Jesus was sent to the Jews, you have now made a volte -face to say that HE died at the age of 120 having gone to Kashmir and Afghanistan to see HIS other sheep. Were there Jews in those areas which would have warranted HIS going there? Can you produce any Jewish or Roman source to confirm that Jesus did not die on the cross?

  297. Namelee

    November 20, 2013 at 7:13 am

    Zia Shah,
    We are on the uneven bars here. You wrote your comment which has been posted. But my reply has not. …

  298. Zia Shah

    November 20, 2013 at 8:56 am

    Whenever anyone makes a good academic point, even if it is against my or Muslims’ ideas, I always approve it, to have a good collection of all decent and useful arguments in the Muslim Times.

    Generally, only repetitions, comments irrelevant to the post or those that are impolite and hostile are censored.

    In this post you already have two comments in series before my comment.

  299. Ahmed Qureshi

    November 20, 2013 at 10:57 am

    @Nameless

    another christian making fun here with his insanity and dumb arrogance.

  300. Ghulam Sarwar

    November 20, 2013 at 11:07 am

    Dear namelee, you seem to be illiterate or pretending to be iliterate. Do I need to tell you the names of two persons who attended to Jesus body after it was brought down from the Cross.
    1. It was Joseph of Arimathia.
    2. Nicodemus

    Who Was Joseph of Arimathea?:

    The role and behavior of Joseph of Arimathea is one of the few things discussed in all four gospels. According to the gospels, Joseph of Arimathea was a rich man, a member of the Sanhedrin who disagreed with Jesus’ conviction. John and Matthew even say that he was a disciple of Jesus. Joseph took the body of Jesus, wrapped it in linen, and buried it in a tomb that he had prepared for himself. (from net.)

    John 19:39
    New International Version (NIV)

    39 He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds… (Quite a heavy dose of anti-biotics.)

    Joseph took charge of the body of Jesus. Nicodemus was the physician. He had brought the herbal medicines to heal the wounds of Jesus.
    That ointment is mentioned in many Pharmacopia as the “Ointment for Jesus”.

    At least i have informed about the two persons names and what they did.

    The gospel writers were not there to see what happened to Jesus. They just heard it from some one and wrote the biography of Jesus.

    1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

    2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; Luke 1:1-2 KJV

    Luke says, as others have carried the news to us, we also reproduce it for others..

    Those who saw Jesus head turn down when he fainted, they described it as “gave up the ghost”. Jesus was still up on the Cross. How could those people ascertain that he had died? He had not died. He had only fainted.

    Nobody could say that he was alive. That would have been most dangerous thing to say at that time. All his well wishers agreed that the man was dead. So there is no need to break his legs.

    Jesus a.s. was in good health and good young age. He could not die on the cross within few hours. Pilate had helped to delay the judgement (on Friday before the Big Sabath) to help save Jesus.

    Now namelee, you are bringing in something wrong from the Quran. Quran does not say that it was some one else on the Cross. That is the most foolish thing that some fourth century monk (Before Muhammad s.a.w.s.) cooked up. Quran (and Muhammad s.a.w.s.) never said that it was some one else on the Cross, and not Isa a.s. You do not believe that story. Then why are you presenting that false theory to me? If you believe that it was certainly some one else on the Cross then please come to me with that belief. Until then, good-bye. And LOve for All, Hatred for None.

  301. Marie Devine

    November 20, 2013 at 1:33 pm

    All holy books should be read as though it is for us, not to discredit others. Then we filter all things through the Bible. (Isaiah 8:20. True revival can only come with greater truth.
    Jesus is the word of God; but the word of God is Savior.
    Jesus cannot return until the time of RESTITUTION of all spoken through all prophets of the Bible. Acts 3:19-21
    Jesus confirmed Moses’ message in Luke 16:31 and in Matthew live by EVERY word out of mouth of God.

    The OUTWARD sign we follow the God of Israel is that we keep the same holy days as God commanded including Sabbaths of no work. Exodus 12, 20:8-11, Leviticus 23, and Deuteronomy 4:2 Not add or diminish from God’s commands.

    God gathers all nations with this truth, because the Qur’an says Say, O People of the Scripture, you stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and Gospel and all God sent down to you.” Qur’an, Al-Maidah 5:68, 69. There religions are told to live by God’s law; and all holy books say there is One Supreme God. This is the desire of all nations; and it is available when we want truth to rule our government as written in the Bible. Glory to God.

  302. Namelee

    November 21, 2013 at 1:08 am

    Zia Shah,
    I try as much as possible to be polite and stick to the subject. Where there is an impolite language used, I have a duty to set the records straight.It is also important that when making or a point facts will be drawn from many sources, including those which relate to your religion. If a point is repeated it is because the same or similar issue has been brought up again.

  303. Zia Shah

    November 21, 2013 at 1:32 am

    Now I am finally closing any discussion in this thread.

    I will not allow any more comments here, even of my best friends, brothers and sisters and in-laws.

    In this final comment, I will summarize some of the materials and give links to pursue a host of discussions, about Islam and Christianity.

    I believe that if the writers of the four canonical Gospels, genuinely believed that Jesus died on the cross and if there was a consensus about it, the writer of this article would not have been able to come up with 65 reasons, from the Bible itself, for the contrary position. My two cents.

    Here are links to pursue other issues of interest to the Muslims and the Christians:

    Dan Barker’s Challenge to Every Christian about Resurrection and Ascension

    Pope John Paul II and Me: ‘Truth Cannot Contradict Truth!’

    The Gracious, the Merciful – God is Love!

    Ten Raised to Five Hundred Reasons for Our Gracious God

    If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence

    Any further comments made in this thread, if suitable otherwise, will be moved to one of the above links.

    NA Alladin has submitted reason number 66, which I thought is worthy of inclusion. As discussion is closed in this post, I thought, I should make it a part of my concluding comment:

    Reason number 66 is that he did not re-submit himself for execution!

    It stands to reason that if one had a mission to convince others regarding certain positions which he passionately held as necessary and correct, and some of those others thinking they had executed him, would be most convinced if he were to return for re-execution.

    In other words, I am trying to convince a tyrants. They kill me. I return to them and say, “Apparently you fellows cannot get this right right. You cannot kill me or hurt me. So let us try this again. As I was saying before being so rudely interrupted …”

    This did not happen because he was not indestructible and subject to further injury.

  304. born of God

    April 10, 2014 at 1:32 pm

    Read with spiritual understanding

  305. carl anderson

    April 16, 2014 at 10:00 pm

    The Human Flesh and Blood of Jesus became clinically dead , The Spirit of Jesus there . He warned the women not to touch Him . God’s power at work here , like television image of made up of God’s power . Jesus came out of the tomb as a bright blinding light , His real form but made to be seen . To avoid words but it fits Jesus human flesh was God’s avatar . The human flesh created by God as we are created by God therefore we are God’s children but Jesus was unique . The whole universe is God therefore God is in me as I am in God . Pay attention to the facts of what Abraham was asked to do ? The Jews(chosen in English) Chosen for what . Israel becomes Abraham to the world . The Jews were put through God’s boot camp so the they were ready for as stated Jesus has said Himself “After all , the salvation of the world , comes from the Jews” The Jews did not murder Jesus . The perfect sacrifice happened . No more killing animals and constant cleansing . Holy Communion instead , turning bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ . Remember God sent a Angel to the Apostles which delivered some special powers , no longer disciples but Bishops of God . The spirit of Christ on earth . There are 4000 reasons God made this happen . The human flesh stopped on the cross but not Jesus Christ .

  306. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    April 17, 2014 at 4:58 am

    carl: sounds more fairytale than spider man and super man …

  307. carl anderson

    April 17, 2014 at 4:26 pm

    Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden , many years a group remember and prayed and sacrifice to God right some how others plunged into paganism . Its one that kept praying to God not things . God started to listen to and in time , chose to protect and guide people nomads . In time after Moses they were put in God’s boot camp . While the rest of the world was pagan . There were no Muslims until Mohamed , right . I not a Muslim . Okay . God all powerful , all knowing , God thinks it , it will happen . I love God , I don not do endless mechanical ritual , to pray to God . I do not sacrifice animals to God , to wash my sins . God created this word . God created the way to Him . We are born of a free will , we are not puppets . I do not discount your faith , pray to God your way . I just a voice in the wind and offer a point of view . Make your own judgment but tell God , I welcome any criticism you say in this forum .

  308. carl anderson

    April 17, 2014 at 4:41 pm

    computer glitches , God created this world , pagans do endless mechanical ritual , watch a Japanese Shinto demon exorcism on TV , total chaos . Nothing happens it is just noise . God gave us the means to do so , but not a thing doesn’t exist but not to listen to that other voice telling us to rob that bank . This how the fallen angels work the only way in your mind. God did not give the fallen angels any power over nature therefore can not control you . So you pray to God for help , to keep from the real evil ones . I believe God create Jesus without a human father , God thinks it , it happens .

  309. Joya

    April 21, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    In a nutshell Muslims consider it appropriate to use twisted logic and reasoning of biblical evidence which by very virtue if its existence is incomplete testimony to the life and works of Jesus Christ, to dismantle ancon validate the very power and essence of his crucifixion. This bite by bite breakdown and analysis of his actual crucifixion is the essence of the eternal sin which jesus came to due for.

    Paul above cites how human thought perverts the message of God in the name if truth by mere virtue of the fact that we as humans can not and do not ‘think,’ like God.

    And so Muslims I ask you. To please consider with love and respect in your hearts the very mortality of your own souls before attempting to sacrifice that which is eternal imperishable and true.

    You can extinguish the light of believers with doubt and darkness for a while but that which is eternal ie. the heart of god as it is bestowed upon all those who revived the message of Christ with truth and sincerity can not be anhiliated in this world or the next.

    Peace be upon you.

  310. musalmaan masala

    April 26, 2014 at 10:17 pm

    Joya, agree with you completely. Muslims have tried to dissect, analyze, ridicule and trash the Crucifixion and Resurrection but have never succeeded.
    About Christ being given a “place of honor” in the Koran there is not a doubt, but doubting (like Thomas) inspite of all the evidence given by people WHO WERE ALIVE and witnessed the Crucifixion and Resurrection brings to zilch His coming into this world.
    As you so rightly say….”those who revived (or should that be “received”) the message of Christ with truth and sincerity can not be anhiliated in this world or the next.”

  311. Frisco Baldwin

    April 28, 2014 at 10:49 am

    Jesus is LORD. Jesus is the one true and only LIVING GOD.

  312. Ghulam Sarwar

    April 28, 2014 at 3:07 pm

    @carl:
    “In time after Moses they were put in God’s boot camp . While the rest of the world was pagan . There were no Muslims until Mohamed , right . I not a Muslim . Okay . God all powerful , all knowing , God thinks it , it will happen . I love God , I don not do endless mechanical ritual , to pray to God . I do not sacrifice animals to God , to wash my sins . God created this word . God created the way to Him . We are born of a free will , we are not puppets . I do not discount your faith , pray to God your way . I just a voice in the wind and offer a point of view .
    ————————-
    1. It is not true that there were no Muslims until Muhammad. It is just a matter of different languages. You say you are not Muslim. Well and good. Please yourself. Remember the meaning of “Muslim”. It means obedient and faithful. He/she is the one who submits to Allah or God or Father in your language, or take it as the Lord of the worlds.
    Well if you do not want to be faithful to the creator, it is up to you. I give you a news from a better, famous learned person, who is well known as a Christian. He says:
    “It is foolish that every one praises himself, his own beliefs. If Islam means submission to God then we all live and die as Muslims.” J.W.Goethe.
    Now I tell you the Muslim belief about all prophets including Adam, Noah, Moses and Jesus (a.s.) they were all Muslims according to Quran, and all were innocent.
    According to your theology, all those men of God were sinners. Including mother Mary. What you people have adopted and whatever you are teaching does not appear to be right!!
    Also according to you, a new born baby is sinner. Can you please explain to me on what ground you consider a new born baby, born into a decent household, how is that baby a sinner? Just please guide me and give me a good reason. Thank you.
    Christians eat and drink and smoke many times in a day but they are not ready to pray to God more than once a week. They think whoever is praying to God day and night, he/she is a puppet. What a bad remark about prayer.
    Did Jesus beat any drums and dance and yell few words from a book in prayers, like it is being done in churches once a week??? I hope not. Please be calm and decide who is right and just leave it to that. Thank you. We also do not like bad remarks about our way of life, Islamic way of life.

  313. Pingback: May 2014 eGazette – How Jesus Became God? | Islam Ahmadiyya

  314. musalmaan masala

    May 3, 2014 at 4:32 am

    Ghulam Sarwar, If you think & believe all that you posted regarding “everybody being Muslim” just because they were “innocent” you have another think coming.
    Moreover your belief system is a little lopsided because apart from Mohammed NO ONE ELSE saw or heard or even felt allah “talk or reveal” anything. So you blindly believe a man who tells you he heard a voice “revealing things to him”. You believe a man WHO CHANGED the revealations he “received” to suit his own purpose.

    And after all that you say “Christians eat and drink and smoke many times in a day but they are not ready to pray to God more than once a week. They think whoever is praying to God day and night, he/she is a puppet. What a bad remark about prayer.” whoever told you that must have smoked something he shouldn’t have.

  315. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 3, 2014 at 9:17 am

    Revelation is not something new that started with the Prophet Muhammad. It is from very old times. God revealed Himself to Prophet Abraham a.s. through angels who visited Abraham a.s.
    Allah spoke to Moses a.s. which only Moses a.s. heard and he told to his people what he heard.

    That is common with men of God. Jesus a.s was a man of God. He was helped (aided) by the holy spirit who is an angel(Gabriel). Jesus a.s. was guided by God Almighty to do things as God wanted him to do. And he did those good things.

    So, I believe in the truth of Jesus and his true disciples. I do not believe in any one who had been an enemy of Jesus or enemy of the followers of Jesus. I believe in the revelation that Jesus received from God Almighty whom he used to call Father.
    Perhaps Father never addresses Jesus as his son. I will be happy to know if God addressed Jesus as his holy son. It is difficult to believe anything in the Bible nowadays because every day a new edition full of alterations and amendments is coming out in the market.
    Revelation is a mercy from the God Almighty. It descends on the prophets and His messengers. They listen and obey and go through hardships to do the work of God Almighty in this world. That is meant to guide the people towards peace and good works.
    Old testament is full of the words, “So says your Lord…”, “So says God Almighty….”
    Can we say that was all lies? We believe that it was true and so it was true what was given to Moses and Jesus a.s. and Muhammad s.a.w.s. in the form of revelation (news) from the God Almighty. We must strive hard to believe in Revelation, Rationality, knowledge and truth.

  316. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 3, 2014 at 9:49 am

    Muslims do not consider it appropriate to use twisted logic about Jesus and the Crucifixion. It is truth in the Quran and more respectable news for Jesus a.s. in the Quran.
    Christians do not realize that they are demonizing Jesus a.s. by making him die on the Cross. It is written in Old Testament that any one who dies on the tree (Meaning Cross) is a cursed person and cursed person, under the curse of God is far away from the Mercy of God Almighty. A cursed person is not a beloved of God. So the Christians want to prove that Jesus was a cursed person. That is very bad indeed.
    Muhammad s.a.w.s. taught that Jesus was not cursed person at all and that he was not Crucified (meaning that he did not die on the Cross). He was put on the Cross and suffered very much the pains. But he survived death on Cross. He simply lost consciousness and appeared to all to be dead.
    This was a great miracle for the sake of Jesus a.s. He was taken care of and later revived in the tomb. He walked 70 miles to Galilee and met his disciples in secret and spoke to them, showed them his wounds and took food from them. He was all alive, himself.
    Jesus a.s. guided his friends (disciples) about his future plans. He was a condemned man in that land and could not appear in public. So they all planned as they planned for the best and Jesus a.s. migrated from that area towards east in search of the lost sheep of Israel as he had promised in the bibleNT.

    This is the teaching of the Quran. It does not make Jesus a cursed person. The Christians, on the one hand, are making Jesus a son of God and a God. On the other hand they are making him a cursed person. They should learn the meaning of CURSE. CURSE is not a good thing.
    Also according to the book of Deuteronomy, a false prophet will be killed. So Christians want to prove that Jesus was false. Christians should read the Bible more than non Christians. It seems they do not take interest in their books of faith i.e. Bible. With love for all, hatred for none, some news is presented above to please think over all these points. Wassalam (Peace).

  317. Namelee

    May 3, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Musalmaan masala,

    Ghulam wants to know when the Father ever called Jesus Son. On the mount of transfiguration, Matthew 17:5 “WHILE HE YET SPAKE, BEHOLD, A BRIGHT CLOUD OVERSHADOWED THEM: AND A VOICE OUT OF THE CLOUD, WHICH SAID, THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED; HEAR YE HIM.”
    There were no parachutes at that time which would have caused somebody to float in the cloud and make that statement.
    According to the quran, the Holy Spirit is a different entity from Gabriel, who is an angel. Sura 70:4 “TO HIM THE ANGELS AND THE SPIRIT DESCEND-”. If both were the same beings, there would have been no need to differentiate between them. There are many verses where allah says it breathed its spirit into. Gabriel could not have been breathed into anyone or anything. While the Holy Spirit can be at many places all at once, Gabriel cannot.
    Ghulam says he does not trust the Bible because of the many versions which are in circulation. If one were not to trust a book on account of its numerous versions, then the quran should be the first to be rejected. It has more versions than the Holy Bible and no two of them say exactly the same thing. I quoted the same verses from Arberry and Nahmud Yazid which were quite different. Everything about the quran, from its ‘revelation’ to compilation, strips it of any reliability.
    Whoever the “enemy” of Jesus was, Ghulam is yet to show how he adversely affected the truth of the Good News that Jesus brought. I also know that Abu Sufyan was Muhammad’s mortal enemy and it was the slave of his wife who killed Hamza, Muhammad’s bouncer. His children would later make enormous contributions to expand Muhammad’s empire. Why is that enmity not counted as detrimental to the cause of Muhammadanism?

  318. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 3, 2014 at 7:11 pm

    Jesus a.s. is not a cursed person as believed by the church. I believe that the cloud or voice of cloud called Jesus his son. I still have to know If God Almighty called him as son. Cloud is not God.
    Gabriel is called the Holy Spirit. Other angels are just referred to as angels. They are not Holy Spirit. So they have to be mentioned separately.

  319. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    May 3, 2014 at 9:06 pm

    Should not the Christians comment on how they see Jesus and we Muslims comment on how we see him?

  320. musalmaan masala

    May 3, 2014 at 10:12 pm

    Namelee it was nice reading your post. It seems Ghulam Sarwar has his knowledge about Christianity in knots because of the misinformation from the Koran regarding Christ.
    He posts in an earlier post “Christians do not realize that they are demonizing Jesus a.s. by making him die on the Cross. It is written in Old Testament that any one who dies on the tree (Meaning Cross) is a cursed person and cursed person, under the curse of God is far away from the Mercy of God Almighty. A cursed person is not a beloved of God. So the Christians want to prove that Jesus was a cursed person” and now feels a little “remorse” and posts “Jesus a.s. is not a cursed person as believed by the church.”
    Further he says “God is not cloud” he forgets that in the Exodus God moved as “pillar cloud and a pillar of fire”. I do not think that any man would survive the sight of the Glory of God. Way to go Ghulam!
    Ghulam goes further and says”Also according to the book of Deuteronomy, a false prophet will be killed. So Christians want to prove that Jesus was false.” Fyki Christians NEVER HAVE CALLED CHRIST A PROPHET. Mohammed has.
    Ghulam, Moses was the only person on Mount Sinai to speak to God BUT people below SAW AND HEARD. In Mohammed NO ONE SAW, HEARD AND FELT allah except that muslims “believe” what he told them he heard. This blind belief has not been challenged and when one does one is called hater and WRONG ANECDOTES from the Bible are given in defence.
    Way to go Ghulam!

  321. B. Darbyson

    May 4, 2014 at 6:29 am

    The commentary throughout this mockery are as ignorant and dishonest as those throughout Christ’s trial and crucifixion.

  322. Namelee

    May 5, 2014 at 2:07 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    If you do not believe that God was the one who spoke in the cloud, were you the one who did so and do clouds speak where you are?
    ‘Gabriel’ is an archangel and is completely different from the Holy Spirit who was breathed into Mary, according to your quran.
    In Hebrews 1:8, God actually refers to Jesus as God. It reads “BUT UNTO THE SON HE SAITH, THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: A SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF THY KINGDOM”.
    I do not need to remind you that even in its twisted form, the quran still says that Jesus will return as the righteous judge. Who else to judge humanity perfectly if not God Himself?

  323. osama

    May 14, 2014 at 8:20 pm

    Two Purpose of Jesus : Man can with support of the GOD remain in the true path regardless of pain and death.

    1) To understand the divinity of Jesus, we must look to GOD not Jesus.

    It was not Jesus who became GOD which is impossible for Jesus or any human for that matter.

    But it was GOD that became Jesus which is possible for GOD.

    Why the humiliated death on the cross?

    This is the fundamental reason for Jesus existance.

    The humiliated death on the cross is a guidance to humans that it is humanly possible to remain true to the religion of GOD at the expense of ones own pride and life.

    Jesus had a choice and yet he chose to be true to his religion.

    This is the TRUE MEANING OF JIHAD.

    2) Where humans failed the LAWs of GOD given to Moses.
    The Jews implemented their laws GOD as given to Moses by crucifying Jesus.

    But their implementation of the law was wrong. A prophet of GOD was crucified and killed according to the Law of MOSES.

    Jesus preached that forgiveness, mercy and most importantly love is the new law.

    What was Muhammad’s last words “O Allah! Forgive me, and bestow Your Mercy on me, and let me meet the companions.” (Bukhari)

    This is another fundamental existance and purpose of Jesus.
    The implementation of MOSES LAW by humans is at fault.

    Only GOD can judge by GODs LAW. No human has the authority or knowledge to judge another human according to God’s law.

    The new commandment by Jesus –
    Love God with all your heart and soul.
    Love each other as I have loved you.

    According to the Quran:

    When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. (43:63, Yusif Ali)

    FEAR ALLAH AND OBEY ME!!!

  324. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    May 14, 2014 at 8:58 pm

    sounds confusing to me…

  325. sami

    May 20, 2014 at 6:36 am

    Don’t hesitate Jesus is Lord and save us all from Satan power. He showed his greatest love to the world on the cross. May the peace of the Lord be upon you.

  326. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 20, 2014 at 9:41 am

    Osama, you have written some good things. But, respectfully, I have to give my view about your following words:
    @Osama:
    2) Where humans failed the LAWs of GOD given to Moses.
    The Jews implemented their laws GOD as given to Moses by crucifying Jesus.
    ——————————
    Well, the Jews did not act on the law of Moses at all. They were not acting on the law of Moses a.s. They were all spoiled high level Jewish leaders sunk in many kinds of vice.
    How can you say that they acted on the law of Moses a.s. to Crucify Jesus?
    You are trying to say that the Jewish leaders were right and Jesus was wrong. That he was preaching something different, quite against the law of Moses a.s. That is not right. Jesus a.s. was trying to guide the Jewish leaders to the proper implementation of the law, the same law.
    Why Jesus turned the tables when he entered the great synagogue in Jerusalem? Did he not accuse the clergy of misusing the law and doing wrong things in the temple under the cover of the law? Jesus a.s. blamed the leaders for the misuse of religion. It is all in the Bible NT.
    You are trying to tell me that Jesus was guilty of some serious mistake and the Jews acted on the law and tried to Crucify Jesus. That is not right.
    The reality is that by the actions and preaching of Jesus a.s., the Jewish leaders were trapped and exposed as corrupt leaders.
    The leaders, even approached Mother Mary to calm down her son (It is mentioned in the Quran.) But she refuse to indulge and referred them to Jesus a.s. (Chapter 19)

    They were all in much trouble and they were blood thirsty to get hold of Jesus and kill him in some way.
    You are justifying their deed (of Crucifixion) and giving them license that they were justified and it was Jesus who was really at fault. I cannot believe you. Please read the Bible NT and decide, in favor of Jesus or his enemies. thank you.
    ——————-
    @: Where humans failed the LAWs of GOD given to Moses…..
    If the humans failed the laws, it was their fault, not the fault of Jesus a.s. He was working according to the law and wanted to re-establish that law. The leaders did not want that. They did not want Jesus to do that because it would end their hegemony, their false pride. That is why they prepared to kill Jesus. He did not want to die, specially not on the Cross. His life was more useful to the world. He was teaching repentance to his flock.
    But the enemies cut short his life mission in that land and he had to depart to a better place where he knew he had other sheep to look after….
    My last few words: Please note that the Jews did not implement the laws given to Moses a.s. If they had been acting on the laws, there would not have been any conflict and no need of Jesus too.

  327. AIHANU

    May 21, 2014 at 8:07 am

    Muhammed didnt know his fate nor the fate of his follwers, Jesus says I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NAN COMRS TO THE FATHER EXCEPTTHROGH ME. THERE IS NO OTHER NAME GIVEN AMONG MEN BYWHICH WE MUST BE SAVED EXCEPT THE NAME JESUS. Pls follow him & stop using your small brain to analyse God’s Word . you need the services of the HOLY SPIRIT TO DO THAT

  328. Zia Shah

    May 21, 2014 at 8:49 am

    If we stop analyzing God’s word, how would we know, what He is saying?

  329. AIHANU

    May 21, 2014 at 1:51 pm

    the Word of God are mysteries, the Bible says they are foolishness to them that perish. Does certain words in the Bible not beat your imagination? they are LIFE & SPIRIT. you need the Spirit of God to illuminate His Word before a carnal mind can understand. you know why you have spent so much time searching for the truth? its because you do not know that there is a vacuum in every man put in him by his Creator Himself & only the Creator Himself can fill that vacuum at salvation by His Spirit after COMPULSORILY surrendering to the LORDSHIP of JESUS CHRIST who became a curse when He bore your sins & my sins at crucifiction; the sacrificial lamp. That is why God highly exhaulted Him & gave Him a name above every other name that at the name of Jesus every knee bows & every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord. There is no other name given among men by which we must be saved except His name. Bowing down to the Lordship of Jesus puts an end to all your searches & confusion; that is why genuinely born again christians do not search for the truth anymore because they have found it eureka! when you give your life to Christ, you experience a heavenly peace that surpasses all understanding freely, the Holy Spirit comes in to dwell in you & starts revealing the truths of the kingdom to you; so sweet. now you can confidently say Abba Father, my Daddy, a very personal & enjoyable experience you can never let go of. You also become bold & you start expiriencing a loving peaceful life wanting everyone to come & taste. you continually wake up with new songs in your mouth. you can ask all the jihadists who are now pastors. its an encountet with your maker in total surrender to the one who died for you & gave you the privilledge of sonship & an eternal inheritance as joint heirs. i am talking life here & not literature. this i have experiened like everyone who is born again. the Bible says ” how can you excape if you neglect so great a salvation?”

  330. AIHANU

    May 21, 2014 at 10:14 pm

    the peculiarity of the birth of Jesus makes it clear that He is not a son like a human; so God does not have a son like humans since He did not marry but through His Spirit Jesus was born.God acknoledged His sonship when He said to the hearing of all present “THIS IS MY ONLY BELOVED SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED, LISTEN TO HIM. It is very clear. At salvation too, the Spirit of God also bears witness with our spirits that we are now children of God as is written in the Bible. Now we can confidently say Abba Father; that’s why genuinely born again christians can comfortably call God DADDY. can you comfortably call God ‘My Daddy as a child’? if u cant, then you do not have a personal relationship with God & you need to be saved through the only way; CHRIST who died using His blood to save us. remember, there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood that is why Christ made the perfect & final sacrifice for my sins & your sins. no more continous sacrifice as in the old testment

  331. Ashok Saldanha

    May 22, 2014 at 4:40 am

    Zia Shah, problem is muslims are not “analyzing God’s Word” they are doubting that the Word (Christ) is God’s Word made Flesh, and saying that God who can do anything CANNOT become man to show human kind the RIGHT WAY to Him, rather they believe a man who does not know the way to God himself CAN show it.

  332. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    May 22, 2014 at 6:09 am

    If virgin birth or being born without a father is a criteria to be the son of God for Jesus, then Adam has more claim to being the son of God since, according to the Bible, he was born without a father AND without a mother!

  333. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 22, 2014 at 6:41 am

    @Ashok Saldanha: “saying that God who can do anything CANNOT become man to show human kind the RIGHT WAY to Him,”

    Dear Ashok, we Muslims believe that God can do everything that He likes, that He wishes. That is written in the Quran. And from Bible and Quran, we can find out what He likes and what He does not like to do.
    Can you please show me from the Bible (New or Old Testament or Quran) that God wanted to become a man to show human kind the RIGHT WAY to Him..??
    Never has God done it before in the history of mankind and He never does such a thing to become a man to teach the men. God has angels, employed for guidance of mankind in the past, present and future. That is His way (Sunnat). Please do not invent a new way and do not become God yourself and do not tell God what he should do…. Thank you, I hope I have passed the message with all love and good wishes for all Christian friends and my love for Jesus a.s. and his mother and father,, and his friends,, wassalam

  334. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    May 22, 2014 at 6:56 am

    As far at this article is concerned, we are focused on trying to discus the truth about Jesus in the Bible NOT the Jesus in the Holy Quran.

    According to the Holy Quran, Adam (as) made a mistake and was forgiven for that by Allah. Prophets are incapable of commiting sins (i.e. disobey Allah’s commandment knowingly) because they are purified by Allah and they are selected primarily due to their devotion and obedience to Allah. However, as human beigns they can make mistakes.

  335. Ashok Saldanha

    May 22, 2014 at 10:32 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, I will answer your question by asking another question. What do you understand by WORD BECAME FLESH? Secondly, there are umpteen prophesies about the coming of the Christ in the OT. Thirdly, Christ Himself speaks in a parable about the son of a landowner being killed after his father had sent representatives before. Fourthly, what & whom would you believe? WITNESSES AFTER THE FACT or someone who wrote about this 650 years later who is the ONLY WITNESS to whatever he wrote.

  336. Marie Devine

    May 23, 2014 at 6:09 am

    Be Aware: Israelis and Muslims and also Christians need to realize that God said, “Isaiah 9:16
    For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.” (That includes government leaders of all nations as well as religion leaders.)

    Muslims cannot accept Pope Francis and the Vatican even to support Palestine on May 24-26, 2014; Popes and the Vatican make popes saints and statutes, and worship Mary and the saints instead of Yahweh-Jehovah, God also called Allah (the God.) As Muslims condemn and march against those who mock their prophet Muhammad, how much more will they forbid Pope Francis and the Vatican defiling
    the word of God and continue to defile the Holy Land and lead to follow the popes & cardinals etc. instead of the truth of God’s written word in the Bible.

    Prophet Muhammad was sent to UNDO deception through popes and the Roman Church; no Muslim that calls himself submitted to the will of God would allow the pope any authority over their land, “congregations” or holy places. God’s message
    through Muhammad was, “Convey this message and if you convey it not, you have not conveyed His message at all. Say, O People of the Book, you
    stand on nothing till you observe the Torah and the Gospel and all God sent down to you from your Lord.” (Qur’an 5:67-69; 42:14-16; 5:43-51 judge by
    Torah” “Allah hates that you should make so much as an image of a gnat.” False religion must fall before truth can rule. Both faithful Jews and Muslims can join in protest against Pope Francis and the Vatican influence in their nation; and remember again that there is only one God and one law for all who would worship Him in truth. I pray we do this peacefully. God wants all to repent and be saved.

  337. Ashok Saldanha

    May 23, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    Marie Devine you seem to be quite angry against Pope Francis. Your diatribe seems to be meandering along lines that are usual. “Popes are bad” “Rome is the devil” “Christians are idol worshippers” etc., etc.,
    Do tell me madam, when muslims visit the grave of Mohammed and the graves of muslim saints do they venerate or worship these people? I ask this because you say Christians “worship” Mary, WHICH THEY DO NOT, they venerate her as they do the saints.
    Further you say they make statues. Christians DO NOT ADORE OR WORSHIP statues (that is why there is no Christian uproar when a statue is desecrated or destroyed) unlike Muslims who take to the streets if the Koran is burnt. (Does this mean muslims WORSHIP THE KORAN?
    Also, remember Christ said He is the image & likeness of God. “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” Does this mean that God broke his own commandment when THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
    I suggest you place your doubts about the popes and Pope Francis to rest and let the man go and mend things in a place which is in ferment without trouble.

  338. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 23, 2014 at 9:37 pm

    Dear Ashok Saldanha, Your new questions:
    What do you understand by WORD BECAME FLESH? Secondly, there are umpteen prophesies about the coming of the Christ in the OT. Thirdly, Christ Himself speaks in a parable about the son of a landowner being killed after his father
    ———————————-
    Ashok, I would like to answer all your questions and I understand your questions (partially). It would have been better if you had posted the actual text from the Bible NT King James Version. Then it would have been easy to answer everything because those words which were spoken by Jesus a.s. cannot be wrong, cannot be useless….
    You are welcome to present the text from Bible NT with its reference and I will reply forthwith. Wassalam.

  339. Ashok Saldanha

    May 24, 2014 at 4:58 am

    Ghulam Sarwar, just like you take so much trouble to find out things about Christianity and Christ and then give your own spin to them (like the Christ in Kashmir & other spins), I would love you to make your own sojourn into the OT & NT & find out for yourself all that I have posted, but please no spin this time around. Just the facts.
    Waiting…..

  340. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    May 24, 2014 at 1:14 pm

    These verses of the Holy Quran tells us all prophets are send with the message that there is only ONLY GOD and HE DOES NOT have a son and these prophets act and speak according to His will and so are sinless. (one can also read verse 3:162 and 12:110).

    ______

    And We sent no Messenger before thee but We revealed to him, saying, ‘There is no God but I; so worship Me alone.’

    And they say, ‘The Gracious God has taken to Himself a son.’ Holy is He. Nay, they are only honoured servants.

    They speak not before He speaks, and they act only by His command.
    [Holy Quran 21:26-28]

  341. AIHANU

    May 24, 2014 at 1:41 pm

    Zia Shah, pls i do not mind having an explanation from you. the thoughts i shared from the Quran were deleted. does it mean that christians are more liberal? allowing other religions to quote the bible freely?

  342. Ashok Saldanha

    May 24, 2014 at 8:27 pm

    Zia Shah, There are many Islamic boards which just do not allow any criticism of the koran, mohammed, allah and things muslim BUT go overboard in criticing Christianity with all the lies about it at their command.
    What I like in the TMT is that you allow free debate even though I notice that at times remarks regarding the koran, mohammed, allah, ahamadiyas etc., are chopped off. THAT I think is your perogative, but the important point is yours is one “Islamic” site that allows the Koran, Mohammed, Allah, Ahmadiyas and other things islamic to be lampooned.

  343. AIHANU

    May 25, 2014 at 10:53 am

    Zia, the fact is that you deleted my mail because the thoughts i raised were quotations in the Quran where muslims were encoureged to kill & subdue christians &jews untill they accept Islam. pls encourage muslims to read & analyse the Quran in totality the way they analyse the bible. there are so many hidden verses they do not know because they do not read. thks

  344. Ashok Saldanha

    May 25, 2014 at 6:36 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, I will rephrase what I had put in earlier and which was not posted. You so easily accepted what “Shah sahib” posted because YOU WERE WILLING TO ACCEPT it But you cannot even think that Leanardo Da Vince USED HIS IMAGINATION in painting the Last Supper and there ARE COUNTLESS OTHERS who have done the same, so why pick only Leanardo Da Vinci.
    I will give you some more food for thought THERE IS NO CHALICE shown in the Leanardo painting. I suppose Leanardo da Vinci read the DA VINCI CODE before painting it.
    Now I bet this will cast the cat among the pigeons & we can have some more inane “discussions” as to the why and where and what of the “mistake”.

  345. musalmaan masala

    May 28, 2014 at 5:31 am

    I clicked on “100s rush Spanish Border” written by
    Rafiq A. Tschannen and was led to AL ISLAM (Official site of the Ahmediya Community) where I found an article ‘MOHAMMED IN THE BIBLE” which made me chuckle. I am posting a part of the article here.

    “Rational thinking indicates that the world was in dire need of revelation, of water from the fountain of spiritual guidance, at the time when the Holy Prophet appeared. He led an ideal life, a perfect example to be followed throughout the future. He started his mission against immense difficulties. He and his followers met strong persecution and opposition. But he was protected and helped by God in miraculous ways. Before his death his mission was firmly established all over Arabia and was rapidly spreading to other countries.

    He worked miracles. He foretold the future, and his prophecies were fulfilled not only in his lifetime but continue to be fulfilled in our time as well. He brought a teaching which has attracted countless adherents since he appeared. In short, all rational tests prove that the mission of the Holy Prophet Muhammad was truly from God.

    The Historical Test

    There is also another test, the historical one, which our present day world requires of a messenger of God. A notable American Bishop of the Catholic Church wrote in a nationally famous magazine that the test of history available to all men, all civilizations and all ages can be applied only to Jesus, because:

    There were no predictions about Buddha, Muhammad, or anyone else -except Christ. Others just came and said: “Here I am, believe me”. Christ alone steps out of the line and answers: My coming was foretold, even to the smallest detail.

    This statement is quite challenging and requires attention. We Muslims believe that Jesus was a true prophet of God. We also accept his advent as having been foretold in the previous scriptures.

    But what about Muhammad?

    We find that his coming was foretold in clear and precise terms not only by Jesus himself but by Moses and other Biblical prophets as well. In fact it seems from whatever words of Jesus are available to the world, that the bringing of glad tidings of a great coming prophet was one of the chief objects of his mission.

    Again and again Jesus said that he was sent to the world only to give as much guidance as the people of his own time could bear. As for complete teaching which would stay forever with mankind, he said:

    But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14-26)

    Only the prophet of Islam could have fulfilled this prophecy of Jesus. Muhammad was truly sent in his name because he bore testimony to his truth. The Holy Quran says:

    The Messiah, son of Mary, was a messenger, “surely messengers like unto him had passed away before him” (The Holy Quran 5:76)

    The Holy Quran reports that the angels told Mary:

    Surely Allah gives you good news with a word from Him of whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and hereafter. (The Holy Quran 3:46)

    The Holy Prophet testified to the truth of Jesus as a divine and honored Teacher and Prophet, and declared them mistaken and misguided who thought him accursed. The Holy Quran described his teachings as “guidance and light .”Further elaborating the same prophecy, Jesus said:

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will sent him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. … I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.. and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. (John 16:7-14)

    This prophecy clearly lays down that:

    The Comforter will come after the departure of Jesus.
    When the Comforter comes, he will reprove the world of sin, truth and justice.
    He will guide the world into all truth.
    The book revealed to him will contain no human word.
    He will foretell things to come.
    He will glorify Jesus and clear him of all charges.

    I just love the last point of Mohammed “glorfying Jesus and clearing him of all charges”

  346. Zia Shah

    May 29, 2014 at 2:38 am

    A reply to AIHANU comment above:

    Violence in the Bible and Jihad in the Quran

  347. AIHANU

    May 29, 2014 at 3:14 am

    whosoever believeth in Him is not condermed.whosoever does not believe is condermed already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

  348. AIHANU

    May 29, 2014 at 12:21 pm

    MUSALMAAN,
    So, the understanding you get from John 14:26 is that Muhammed is the Holy Ghost? since Muhammed is dead, who is the new holy ghost? since the promise of Jesus is that the Holy Ghost should be our teacher, comforter & helper till date. is it that this present generation is without the comforter?

  349. Ghulam Sarwar

    May 29, 2014 at 8:53 pm

    AIHANU, I will present it the Islamic teachings about the Comforter and Holy Spirit.. Holy Ghost is the Arch angel Gabriel a.s. According to the Quran, and the Bible NT, Jesus a.s. was aided by the Holy Ghost or supported by the Holy Ghost i.e. Holy Spirit.
    Holy Ghost is not a man. He is an angel. Even Jesus a.s. mentioned it that he was supported by the Holy Spirit, that is why the Christians include the Holy Spirit in Trinity.
    The Comforter is not a spirit. Please Read John chapter 14, where Jesus is telling about the Comforter who will come and lead every one to complete truth. He will not speak of himself but whatsoever he will hear that he will speak. AIHANU, can you tell me that a spirit hears and speaks?? It is a man who hears and speaks. Holy Spirit guides the man. The man hears the words of guidance and speaks out to the public.

    Again and again Jesus said that he was sent to the world only to give as much guidance as the people of his own time could bear. The one who is sent is called a messenger, a Rasool. He is not God.
    As for complete teaching which would stay forever with mankind, Jesus a.s. said:
    “I have many things to say unto you but you cannot bear them now. However, when the spirit if truth is come, he will lead you into all truth…” as I have mentioned above.
    It shows that Jesus a.s. could not finish his mission in his own land. His mission was cut short by his enemies.
    Same goes for Moses a.s. He was told by God Almighty that God will raise from amongst his brethren, a prophet the like of Moses…. It means his mission was also not complete. The bible NT refers to him as “That Prophet”. The Jews were waiting for “That Prophet” till the time of John the Baptist and Jesus a.s. It means “That Prophet” had not arrived till appearance of Jesus a.s. and “That Prophet” was to appear from the brethren of the Israelis… i.e. from the Ishmaelis, i.e. Arabs.
    That is why the Jewish tribes had settled near Madinah in Arabia because they knew “That Prophet” was soon to appear in that area of Arabia.
    It is upto you whether you give any importance to these things. Please consider. Thank you.

  350. musalmaan masala

    May 29, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    Aihanu, that is not what I meant.Please read the piece, I have copied and pasted it from Al Islam to show to what lengths muslims will go so that Mohamed and Allah to be found in the Bible.

  351. Ashok Saldanha

    May 31, 2014 at 4:44 am

    Zia Shah, one cant dole out a bad choice to counter a former “bad choice”. This is with reference to your
    “Violence in the Bible and Jihad in the Quran”. Remember the Koran came in 650 years after the NT and should have changed the status quo – NOT endorsed it.

  352. Zia Shah

    May 31, 2014 at 8:04 am

    Ashok Saldanha you did not read the article carefully, the Holy Quran did not endorse the violence in the Bible. Please read the article again:

    Violence in the Bible and Jihad in the Quran

  353. AIHANU

    June 2, 2014 at 12:57 pm

    Ghulam,
    the Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit. He is not an angel. the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God; He is the one that reveals the mysteries of God to our spirits when we become born again 1Corinthians:10-11, He hears & He speaks till date to born again children of God. He is the one that bears witness with our spirits when we receive salvation in order to assure us that we are now children of God. He is in my life today & i am enjoying His fellowship & this applies to anyone who has TOTALLY surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit speaks & hears; i am a witness. my spirit also speaks to Him & hears. it will be most painful on earth losing out of fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

  354. AIHANU

    June 2, 2014 at 1:40 pm

    Romas 8:14-19:
    FOR AS MANY AS ARE LEAD BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD

    FOR YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF BONDAGE AGAIN TO FEAR; BUT YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION, WHEREBY WE CRY ABBA FATHER

    THE SPIRIT ITSELF BEARS WITNESS WITH OUR SPIRIT, THAT WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD.

    IF CHILDREN, THEN HEIRS; HEIRS OF GOD, AND JOINT- HEIRS WITH CHRIST IF SO BE THAT WE SUFFER WITH HIM, THAT WE MAY BE ALSO GLORIFIED TOGETHER.

    FOR I RECKON THAT THE SUFFERINGS OF THIS PRESENT TIME ARE NOT WORTHY TO BE COMPARED WITH THE GLORY WHICH SHALL BE REVEALED IN US

    FOR THE EARNEST EXPECTATION OF THE CREATURE WAITS FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.

  355. Ghulam Sarwar

    June 2, 2014 at 6:12 pm

    AIHANU, you have made the comforter as a holy Ghost. Comforter is not holy ghost. When Jesus was about to depart, he addressed his friends with the words: “I have many things to say unto you but you cannot bear them now. However, when the spirit of truth will come, he shall guide you into all truth…”
    This spirit of truth is not holy ghost. Do you want to tell me that Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit had left Jesus?? It had gone away and Jesus a.s. was telling about its coming?? That is not possible.
    Jesus a.s. was telling about a person who will have a spirit of truth. He will come and will listen and speak to people and guide them….
    Jesus a.s. was a comforter himself and he told that God will give followers another comforter. That will be another person like Jesus himself, not any holy spirit. Of course, he will also be supported by the holy spirit; the holy spirit will be with that comforter too.
    We Muslims believe that holy Spirit is an angel who brings messages (guidance) from God and delivers those messages to the prophets. Jesus a.s. was a prophet. Jesus a.s. was supported (aided) by the Holy Spirit, like all other prophets Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, and Muhammad.
    You have changed the category of Jesus to that of God Almighty but given him a status of man-God. That is creating problems for you and other Christians. We Muslims have no doubt or disrespect for Jesus and Mary. It is the Christians who have beliefs that all mankind is sinner except Jesus. We believe that no one is born sinner except the ones who commit a SIN. And all the prophets are sinless.

  356. Ashok Saldanha

    June 2, 2014 at 8:28 pm

    Zia Shah, I might have used the wrong word “endorsed” but there IS violence in the koran which in a way endorses the violence in the OT since the koran “confirms everything in the OT & NT”. Moreover, why should there be violence in the Koran when it is a “religion of peace”.
    Further, the OT is a history of the Jews with all their failings, love interests, lusts, rapes, murders, envy in short the works. There is nothing hidden.
    While The line “There are no verses in the Holy Quran to trigger and promote genocide, but there are in the Bible” really caught my attention as it is an effort in generalization that Muslims usually practice to prove a point.
    Further there is a line “There are no verses in the Holy Quran to destroy polytheism with sword and kill all polytheists” – another generalization when Sura 3:151″Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with allah, for which He had sent no authority”. This speaks DIRECTLY OF POLYTHEISTS, yet it ALSO INCLUDES Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Mohammed incorrectly believed to be ‘joining companions to allah’).
    I would have continued with the “There are no verses in the Holy Koran……” but feel these examples are enough to prove the “truth” in the article you asked me to read again.
    You seem to be like most of today’s Muslims who practice a personal choice in interpreting the Koran’s call to arms according to THEIR OWN moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. You are requested to check (2:191-193), (2:244), (2:216), (3:56), (3:151), (4:74) from the Koran and many more along with the Hadiths (sayings of Mohammed).

  357. Zia Shah

    June 3, 2014 at 12:58 am

    Ashok Saldanha, it is you who is generalizing and not the Muslims.

    You generalize that the Holy Quran approves of every thing in the Old Testament, whereas the fact is that the Holy Quran only approves of what Allah revealed and not of what was later added or twisted by humans.

    You did not say anything in the defense of the Old Testament or New Testament as regards violence in the two books.

    The way you name the Holy Quran as “Koran,” speaks of a prejudiced culture for centuries, so no wonder you could not understand the article suggested by me, very well.

    I still believe that others can benefit very well from the article.

    I will show you the meanings of individual verses that you have cited, in due course of time, but for now let me link a few articles for starters, for you and other readers:

    Fundamental versus allegoric: War and Peace in Islam

    Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran

    You quote 3:56 as evidence for promotion of violence in the Quran, let me quote the verse before and 3:56:

    When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ. Then as for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and in the next, and they shall have no helpers.

    Here the Holy Quran is absolving Jesus, may peace be on him, from charges of his detractors and Allah is telling, how He will judge people and deal with them and not advising Muslims to take matters, into their own hands, rather trust the Omniscience and Omnipotence of Almighty Allah.

    The verse 3:151 that you quote above is about defensive warfare, which was imposed on the Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace be on him, after he had migrated to Madinah, after 13 years of persecution. Here Allah is telling the believers that He will help them in several ways, if they follow His teachings, of patience and loyalty and submission to the Prophet. Let me just put that verse, in proper context, with a few verses before:

    And many a Prophet there has been beside whom fought numerous companies of their followers. They slackened not for aught that befell them in the way of Allah, nor did they weaken, nor did they humiliate themselves before the enemy. And Allah loves the steadfast.

    And they uttered not a word except that they said: ‘Our Lord, forgive us our errors and our excesses in our conduct, and make firm our steps and help us against the disbelieving people.’

    So Allah gave them the reward of this world, as also an excellent reward of the next; and Allah loves those who do good.

    O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers.

    Nay, Allah is your Protector, and He is the Best of helpers.

    We shall strike terror into the hearts of those that have disbelieved because they associate partners with Allah for which He has sent down no authority. Their abode is the Fire; and evil is the habitation of the wrongdoers.

  358. Ashok Saldanha

    June 3, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    Zia Shah, You generalize that the Holy Quran approves of every thing in the Old Testament, whereas the fact is that the Holy Quran only approves of what Allah revealed and not of what was later added or twisted by humans.”
    AND YET Mohammed CONFIRMED things from the OT & the NT in the Koran.
    Do let me know what has been “later added or twisted by humans” in the OT & NT because I notice that things that do not jell with Mohammed and what he says is always twisted & later added.
    Do also let me know what is “defensive warfare” as practiced by a man who is accused of raids on people who did not agree with his teachings.
    Sura 3:51 boils down to the last verse whatever the verses before may say.
    The day you start believing that the Resurrection was a historical fact and remove the doubts in you, you will change.

  359. Zia Shah

    June 4, 2014 at 1:20 am

    There is only one name you need to know to learn about human influence on the New Testament. Just read some of the books of Prof. Bart Ehrman and watch his talks and debates available on Youtube.

    I am making life very easy for Christians and giving them short cuts to success and the Truth.

    Bart D. Ehrman (born 5 October 1955) is an American New Testament scholar, currently the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is a leading scholar in his field, having written and edited over twenty-five books, including three college textbooks, and has also achieved acclaim at the popular level, authoring four New York Times bestsellers. Ehrman’s work focuses on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the development of early Christianity.

  360. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    June 4, 2014 at 6:27 am

    It is not Mohammad (peace be on him) who confirmed things from the old or new testament. The Qur’an is a relevation directly from Allah. Mohammad (peace be on him) was only the messenger. As the older religions come from the same God, the creator of us all, it is totally ‘normal’ that some messages in the new book will be similar to some messages in the old books.

  361. AIHANU

    June 7, 2014 at 3:43 am

    Zia, pls how come you did not publish the reply i gave to Ghulam’s mail? i sent him some bible references; pls publish it or let me have a cogent reason pls.

  362. Zia Shah

    June 7, 2014 at 5:53 am

    AIHANU, I am not sure, what happened to your comment. But, go ahead add your comment with the Biblical references and save your editorial comments for a separate comment.

  363. mumzy

    June 8, 2014 at 2:40 pm

    Man,you lot are really going at it. Jheez why don’t you take this thing I call a BREAK.

  364. Meer Sulaiman

    June 9, 2014 at 3:52 am

    Brother Zia,
    In all your 65 points you only talked about Jesus(pbuh) did not die on the cross, its a fact and the Muslim world recons it, but what you have not put up was the crucifying act, in one of your point you mentioned that death on the cross was a cursed death, so putting Jesus(pbuh) on the cross was itself a curse to Jesus(pbuh), so did not raise that point,
    According to Quran 4-157, it clearly says ” Jesus was neither killed nor crucified by the Jews, and in continuation Quran answers to those like you who will ask what happened then to Jesus(pbuh) if he was not crucified, the Quran says in 4-158 ” Rather Allah raised him to Himself”
    Verse 157 and 158 are in continuation, soon after Allah Subhanatalahu revealed 157 He revealed 158.

    The Ahmediyya Jamat is misinterpreting these 2 verses and explaining falsely.
    Please do reply without deleting my comment.

  365. Ghulam Sarwar

    June 9, 2014 at 11:24 am

    Crucifixion means death on the Cross, not just putting on the cross.
    Arabic word Rafa’a i.e.”raising” means elevating and raising the status, not raising the body. It is raising the soul only in high status. Wassalam.

  366. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    June 11, 2014 at 4:51 am

    I am noticing that instead of discussing the 65 reasons, some people are raising questions on Islam and the Holy Founder of Islam. We welcome all questions and are open to discuss all objections as long as raised in a respectful and honest tone.

    The following site will answer most of the questions raised against Holy Prophet Muhammad (sm) and if you have more please ask in the site.
    http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org/

    Did Prophet Muhammad kill 700 Jews?

    Did Prophet Muhammad teach Muslims to use Terrorism and Jihad to spread Islam?

    Did Prophet Muhammad teach death for apostasy and blasphemy?

  367. Zarif Ahmad

    June 11, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    In the Name of Allah the Most Gracious Ever Merciful
    @ Meer Sulaman
    Dear Meer Sahib Assalamo Alaikum wa Rahmatullah wa Barakatuh and Welcome to this Forum. Insha’Allah we never needed to wipeout your comments, by the Grace of Allah the Jama’at-e-Ahmadia has strong and sound arguments and we just not want to win the argument by hook or crook because: koiee jeet ker bhee haaraa koiee haar ker bhee jeeta; to us winning without truth is meaningless for us.
    1) There are so many Christian who offer themselves every year to put them on the cross and their hands and feet are nailed on the cross and after a little while they come down alive if they are ever been named as crucified? Likewise the case of Jesus (a.s.) was remain on the cross for a few hours and came down alive, that is why the holy Quran he was not crusfied and not killed and certainly He was not killed, but Raised (his status) to Himself (To Himself and not on Sky ) Please see the meaning of Rafa in the beginning of 3rd Para or part of the Holy Quran , where with use of the word Rafa with Hazrat Eisa (a.s.) Rafa-e-derjat has been mentioned.
    2)Please study the last Rakoo of surat Ma-e-da; where in Hazrat Eisa (a.s.) would admit himself as long as he was among Christian they were on the right path and when tawafaitanee you caused me to die I do not know any thing about them.
    3) Being Prophet Allah He would not tell a lie that he did not know as he either stay up in the Heaven and would never return on the earth or would be telling lie which is not possible for a prophet.
    4)The Holy Prophet (p.b.u.h.) himself explain the meaning of Tawaffaitanee as cause me to die in the same scenario upon himself (please see Tafsier surah Maidah in the Sahee Bukharee)
    There are so many verses of the Holy Quran on the demise of Hazrat eisa alai-salam, but for the time being I think that much is sufficed.
    Wassalam
    Zarif Ahmad

  368. AIHANU

    June 18, 2014 at 4:22 am

    Ghulam, sorry it has taken this long to do a second reply; the 1st reply wasn’t published as is the case with some of my mails but i am sending a second reply & hope it will be published.

    i know u have great regards for the Bible and for the words that proceed from the mouth of Jesus the Christ. .

    Jesus said in

    John 14:25-26: These things have i spoken unto you, being yet present with you. BUT THE COMFORTER,WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever i have said unto you.

    *throughout Muhammed’s ministry, did he actually remind his followers of ALL the WORDS that Jesus SAID?

    John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he shall guide you into all truth: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come. ALL things that the FATHER HATH ARE MINE THEREFORE SAID I, that HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT) SHALL TAKE OF MINE AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU

    John 14:15-16 if ye love me, keep my commandments. And i will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER

    *to my knowledge, i know ?Muhammed is long dead and not abiding forever as this verse of scripture says.

    John 14: 17,18 the SPIRIT OF TRUTH WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE BECAUSE IT SEETH HIM NOT, NEITHER KNOWETH HIM; BUT YE KNOW HIM FOR HE DWELLETH WITHIN YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU. i will not leave you comfortless. i will come to you.

    the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God dwells in as many who have yeilded to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and He bears withness with our spirits that we are children of God. He speaks to my spirit & i hear Him when He speaks to my spirit. i ask Him questions when i confused & He always helps with the way out giving me peace.HE SPEAKS, HEARS & LISTENS; every born again child of God will tell you thesame thing otherwise he is not born again & have no personal relationship with God the Father. i pray that the grace & mercies of God draws you unto salvation so that you too can see the mysteries of the Kingdom of Jehovah the God of heaven & earth in Jesus Christ Name Amen.

  369. Nelson Dias, Mansor Saaid Hasani.

    June 18, 2014 at 7:06 am

    The koran says they neither killed him or crucified. Why this argument? Humdulillah !

  370. AIHANU

    June 21, 2014 at 4:52 am

    SOME ASSISTANCE REQUIRED PLEASE

    Pls i am not really a Quran scholar but i would like to have some refereces in the Quran so i can read them up myself
    From certain verses of the Quran sited on this page, i am made to understand that
    1. Jesus Christ was a special kind of prophet and has many verses of the Quran to His credit.
    2. Jesus died a natural death.
    3. Allah raised Him up to Himself.

    please i would like to have specific verses in the Quran that clearly state the following:

    1. at what age did Jesus eventually die the natural death?

    2. since Allah caused Him to die, what was the natural cause of His death? was He sick? or did He die in sleep? or was He poisoned? or how?

    3. Who were those with Him when He died? were they His followers or His family members?

    4, did He eventually marry? if He did, who was/were His wife/wives and His children?

    5. how did he eventually die? was it in the arms of a wife, a follower or how?

    6. when did Allah raise Him unto Himself? was it in His old age? or was He raised up before He came back to die naturally?

    7. where was He eventually buried when He died the natural death? who were those who dressed Him and buried Him?

    I know that the above details are in the Quran about Muhammed and i would also like to have similar references about Jesus since He was a very great prophet.

    your references will put to rest a lot of confusion and ambiguities about the death and crucifiction of Jesus in the Muslim perspective.

  371. musalmaan masala

    June 22, 2014 at 10:30 pm

    Aihanu, that was a superb 3rd degree questioning to all the muslims and Mirza Ghulam Rabbi’s “65 reasons that Jesus did not die on the cross”. Put in any other way your questions would not have appeared here. You have stolen the thunder from under this …
    & the use of the word “crucifiction” (a Ahmed Deedat speciality) instead of crucifixion was an apt way of clearing the air.
    Now I am waiting for the Muslim perspective.

  372. Zia Shah

    June 23, 2014 at 12:37 am

    This is in response to the last two comments.

    I would let other Muslims give you some details about the questions you ask, to give you an opportunity to change the subject?

    I just want to share a small little detail.

    Christianity is based on the claim of resurrection after death on crucifixion. If it is resuscitation instead, then it collapses Pauline Christianity, completely. The details surrounding these events are not fundamental to Islam.

    Islam bases itself on revelation, by All-Knowing God to all Prophets, including all the Jewish Prophets, starting with Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, David and Solomon, Jeremiah, Ezra, John the Baptist and Jesus and finally Muhammad, may peace be on him.

  373. musalmaan masala

    June 23, 2014 at 5:59 am

    Ah! the muslim perspective….
    In other words Zia Shah, you do not have a reply and neither does Islam, to the pertinent points raised by Aihanu.
    You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You let Mirza Ghulam Rabbi speak 65 times without any reason and now come out with a gem by calling the Resurrection “resuscitation”.

  374. Zia Shah

    June 23, 2014 at 8:07 am

  375. Ghulam Sarwar

    June 23, 2014 at 10:56 am

    @ AIHANU

    June 18, 2014 at 4:22 am

    Ghulam,

    i know u have great regards for the Bible and for the words that proceed from the mouth of Jesus the Christ. .

    Jesus said in

    John 14:25-26: These things have i spoken unto you, being yet present with you. BUT THE COMFORTER, WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever i have said unto you.

    *throughout Muhammed’s ministry, did he actually remind his followers of ALL the WORDS that Jesus SAID?
    ———————————–
    My Reply: AIHANU, please note that every day new versions of Bible are coming out from men of this age. They are not from God Almighty. The words ” WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST,” are extra, added in this verse.
    I rely very much on the verse 16:13-15 where Jesus Christ a.s. gave his final good news to his disciples about the coming of a Pharklete (The comforter). Let us leave it at that. I have explained before that is not any spirit or holy Spirit. That is a man, referred to as “He”. “He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak of himself but whatsoever he will hear that he shall speak.” That is not a holy Spirit at all.

    Why a holy spirit will hear some thing and then speak to the people?? Please try to understand this point. It is a new invention or intervention by the church people in their sacred book, the Bible NT.
    That is no harm to us Muslims. That is a great harm to the Christians whose holy book is being tempered with daily. Why they cannot keep the very old version intact and take meaning (guidance) from that? Please strike out the following words from your verse 14:25-26 “WHICH IS THE HOLY GHOST,”. Then read your verse again.
    ==============================================

    @ Your presentation: John 16:13-15 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he shall guide you into all truth: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come. ALL things that the FATHER HATH ARE MINE THEREFORE SAID I, that HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT) SHALL TAKE OF MINE AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU
    —————————————-
    My reply: From this verse, please strike out the following words ALL things that the FATHER HATH ARE MINE THEREFORE SAID I, that HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT) SHALL TAKE OF MINE AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU”, which were not found in old versions of Bible. The words “Holy Spirit” are in brackets anyhow. Then you will be near to the truth:
    “ALL things that the FATHER HATH ARE MINE THEREFORE SAID I, that HE (THE HOLY SPIRIT)”
    We had never seen these words in old versions of Bible. It was written there “For he shall receive of mine and shall show it unto you.”
    This was a news about the Pharclete, the comforter, the man, the person that Jesus a.s. was speaking about. It was not any holy spirit, not any god, not any angel. I can clearly see that new words are added to misguide people that comforter is holy spirit.
    Please note that at another place, Jesus a.s. said, “God will give you another Comforter..” That means Jesus a.s. is a Comforter and he is telling God will give his followers another Comforter.. Try to understand that please… See my next remarks… in verse 14:15-16 below.
    ==========================================

    @ : John 14:15-16 if ye love me, keep my commandments. And i will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER………

    *to my knowledge, i know ?Muhammed is long dead and not abiding forever as this verse of scripture says.
    ————————————-
    My reply: This is true from Jesus a.s. He is telling his friends “If you love me then keep my commandments..” Are Christians keeping the commandments of Jesus a.s. or the commands of Paul. We see clearly that they have discarded the commandments of Jesus a.s. and his way of life, what he practiced all his life. Jesus never said any dirty words about the law. He had never said that the Law of Moses a.s. was curse and it should be abandoned..
    This verse is about the Comforter ( a man) similar to Jesus a.s. Jesus a.s. was also a comforter. He said “God will give you another Comforter”. Do the Christians believe that Jesus a.s. was the Holy Spirit?? Not at all. So why they are mixing the Comforter with Holy Spirit????? That is a clear mistake of modern Church.
    Jesus a.s. said that the Comforter will remain with you forever. That is also true. It is Muhammad and his teachings that are same as the lovely teachings of Jesus and they are mentioned in the Quran that the teachings of Muhammad will remain with mankind forever and no new teachings will come after him till the doomsday. Nor will any one be able to disturb, abrogate, annihilate the teachings of the Quran.
    ==================================
    This post is getting lengthy. I shall try to address your posts later. Excuse any E&O. Wassalam (Peace be with you).

  376. musalmaan masala

    June 23, 2014 at 10:00 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, … Your trumpeting of “Nor will any one be able to disturb, abrogate, annihilate the teachings of the Quran” Now really….The abrogation clause and the change my last announcement by Mohammed is very much there in the Quran. If you would like I could educate you on some of them.

  377. AIHANU

    June 24, 2014 at 2:05 pm

    GHULAM,

    thanks for taking time out to do the above analysis;

    please i would like you to analyse the last verses i sited before my conclusion i.e JOHN 14:17 &18. before i respond to your analysis.

    And if you do not mind, kindly add the Quran refetences i asked for in my last mail bothering on Jesus natual death

    but if you fill it will be too lengthy, just give the analysis of only JOHN 14: 17 & 18 only so i can respond to all your replies on the Holy Spirit. thanks.

  378. Kyrian

    July 7, 2014 at 1:18 pm

    My muslem brothers,i c u al claim dt u av a deep knowledge abou xtianity,bt my reproach 2 u z dt ur understandings r nt 4m God. Hwever,i pray Jesus open ur eyes,so u cn c hm,u ears so u cn hear hm calling n ur heart so u cn setle 4 hm. 2nk u.

  379. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 7, 2014 at 3:56 pm

    Dear musalmaan masala, I am sorry I failed to notice your comments. You are welcome about abrogation of verses. Please come forward and teach me. Thank you.

  380. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    July 7, 2014 at 3:59 pm

    If you think so, Ghulam Sarwar. As for me I thought we had heard sufficiently masala’s opinion …

  381. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 7, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    It seems to be mixed masala and I must have missed it.

  382. musalmaan masala

    July 10, 2014 at 3:46 am

    Ghulam Sarwar seems the usual ploy of Zia Shah of not publishing anything that does not jell with his sort of thinking is working here.
    Which just makes me think that what I had posted holds water regarding Abrogation in the Quran by Mohammed.

  383. musalmaan masala

    July 10, 2014 at 3:48 am

    Ghulam Sarwar, posting again by deleting a sentence of Christ in comparison with Mohammed. May be Zia Shah will have a change of heart and abrogate his previous decision of not publishing my post.

    Ghulam Sarwar, The Quran is unique in ABROGATION according to which later pronouncements of Mohammed ABROGATE his earlier ones. Since muslims boast that the Quran is “perfect” and “there is no other book like it” and other assorted praises ABBROGATION comes down to either Allah did not know what he was talking about and had to change his words from time to time or Mohammed was lying.
    This ABROGATION bit has been turned into a fine art form & a science has grown around it known as Nasikh wa Mansukh, i.e.: the Abrogators & the Abrogated
    …….

  384. Etidorhpa

    July 10, 2014 at 5:59 am

    We have no proof of any religious deity. It’s all by faith. I will choose a faith of peace, which is in Jesus.

  385. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 15, 2014 at 12:41 pm

    musalmaan masala, I said in my previous post that your posts seem to be a mixed masala. You have raised the question of abrogation in the verses of Quran. Well, I do not know how you have decided that there is abrogation.
    We have posted many times on this forum that there is no abrogation in verses of Quran. Old time scholars not having understood the true meaning of some verses tried to pit them against another verses and they made up a total of about 500 abrogated verses.
    That was a creation of their own minds. It was not done by Allah or the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s.
    There is a verse in Quran stating “We do not abrogate any verse nor do we make it to be forgotten, (but) WE bring a better one in its place or a one similar (equal) to it.” This verse says that Allah does not abrogate any verse….
    The number of supposedly abrogated verses was reduced to about 50 after proper understanding.
    In year 1600 A.D.(?) the time of Shah Waliullah Dehlavi Rh.a. most of the misunderstanding was removed and the supposedly abrogated verses were reduced to five only. It means that there were no misunderstood verses except five.
    During the time of the Promised Messiah a.s. and the Imam Mahdi a.s. those five verses were all solved and understood and there was none left as abrogated.
    So please leave me at that. I have informed you that there is no abrogation of verses in the Quran. If there is any, you should try to present that verse and the verse which is the abrogating verse. Then we will proceed further, Insha Allah. Wassalam.

  386. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm

    Dear Etidorhpa, you will chose the faith of peace and be with Jesus a.s. That is very good. The Quran and Islam will support you. I will be with you. Be careful about sticking with Jesus a.s. and do not take any other Lord beside him to overtake Jesus a.s. Be peaceful (non abusive) person. You have nothing to worry.

  387. aihanu

    July 17, 2014 at 3:55 am

    hi Zia, Ghulam & other muslims on this platform, i am yet to receive a reply to my mail of 21st June. pls can someone reply my mail? thanks.

  388. musalmaan masala

    July 21, 2014 at 10:27 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, I wonder what ““We do not abrogate any verse nor do we make it to be forgotten, (but) WE bring a better one in its place or a one similar (equal) to it.” This verse says that Allah does not abrogate any verse….” if not abrogation.
    and I wonder what
    “The number of supposedly abrogated verses was reduced to about 50 after proper understanding.” if not abrogation

    and I wonder what
    “During the time of the Promised Messiah a.s. and the Imam Mahdi a.s. those five verses were all solved and understood and there was none left as abrogated.” if not abrogation

    and finally after all these changes, reductions and solvings of abrogations it seems the Quran itself has changed.

  389. ghulam sarwar

    July 22, 2014 at 4:21 am

    The Quran words were not changed but the meanings of verses was well understood. Allah revealed the verses of Torah, Bible and Quran. If any verses were abrogated they were of the Torah or the Bible. They were abrogated by the verses of the Quran.

  390. Pingback: Bart Ehrman on his loss of Christian faith – Michael Licona vs. Bart D. Ehrman | The Muslim Times

  391. Ashok Saldanha

    July 28, 2014 at 3:42 am

    Zia Shah, you seem to relish not publishing the names of the two books I quoted, which you forgot to quote to Muslims and Christians with “open minds”

  392. owen west

    July 28, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    Anyone can read and study the bible but that does not make him a believer. We must never read scripture out of context. For every new testament reading there is an old testament reading that supports it. Read scripture and allow God to speak to you thro the word, what is the message saying and what is it telling you today.
    I read with dismay how Paul the apostle of the gentiles is not believed by some. Luke was a gentile a follower of Paul. Jesus grew up in Galilee a place where Jews and gentiles lived. Did he not preach about the parable of the good Samaritan and also he proclaimed himself to a Samaritan woman who went to tell others about the messiah.
    Jesus is human and devine in nature. He is the word who became flesh. By his humanity he suffered and died for us. He conquered death by dying on a cross and rising again thro his divinity. He predicted this by saying I will destroy the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. He ascended into heaven and sent forth the Holy spirit to his disciples just as he received it at the start of his own ministry.

  393. Zia Shah

    July 29, 2014 at 2:05 am

    owen west, thanks for your comment.

    Trinity is three persons in one being, but, the confusion is that the Christian apologists keep mixing them up and constantly bait and switch. Talk about one person and imply the other. As if sometimes John is James and sometimes Jane.

    We will believe in your rhetoric, if you can tell us some basic details:

    1. Who decided to die on the cross, Jesus the man, Jesus the god or God the Father?

    2. Who died on the cross Jesus the man or Jesus the god?

    3. As Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, who raised him from the dead, Jesus the man, Jesus the god or God the Father?

    And lastly what did the Holy Ghost think about this suicidal mission, we never seem to hear about that.

    Thanks again for your kindness.

  394. Ghulam Sarwar

    July 29, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    Much of owen west writing is known to every one. Owen west writes about looking into the old testament. May I ask why? When church has discarded the law of Moses a.s. as a curse and the Christians do not follow whatever is written in OT i.e. the circumcision, the Sabath, the abstention from the swine etc., then why to advise Muslims to read the OT.
    We know much is there in OT against the present practice of the church. Most important is the words “You will not have another God beside Me..”
    The OT supports the Unitarian faith but Church follows Trinity. WHY??? There is nothing in OT about Trinity.
    There may not be anything about atonement in OT. If there was something good and useful in OT about Jesus a.s. the Christians have spoiled all that. Jesus followed the law of Moses a.s. He was a true follower of the law and Jesus was a messenger subservient to Moses a.s.
    Welcome west. Try to present something about Trinity from the OT please.
    It appears that Christianity is a completely different religion against the Abrahamic faith. It calls every man of God as born sinner and elevates Jesus to a status of God. It is not fair.

  395. bashir skaf

    July 31, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    one can argue years about this, but before you or i post non-sense endless arguments, one should consider the real reason why would someone claim or try to prove that (in this case) Jesus did not die, but (according to the article) he suffered on the cross as far as it goes using the “bible” as evidence to support their claims. if you want to use the bible as evidence to support something you might as well use it all or forget it.
    i don’t need reason to prove or defend my faith, at the end of the day faith is what you believe in, you close your eyes and believe once you start questioning it is no longer faith, call it whatever you want.

    if you are trying to defend an idea by attacking a “known religious event” not to say truth, then your argument is invalid.
    before we discuss if he died or not, who do you consider jesus was? a prophet? a god? a son of god?
    or just a human?

    once you categorize your view about Jesus we can then proceed to talk and discuss, i am not here to argue with anyone about a known historical fact let alone an ideological belief. you put someone on the cross for a day and a night, you come in the morning and hit them with a Speer, then you place them in a tomb or a room or whatever you want to call it – for 3 days. what do you call it? deep sleep? OK lets call it deep sleep. i wont call it death and resurrection.

    question 1 – do you consider him miraculous?
    he had previously risen someone else “Lazarus” from a 4 day death. he fed 5000 people with 3 pieces of bred and 2 fish.
    obviously this is known historical facts, transmitted over 2000 years written by his followers witnessed by a whole generation.

    if he can do miracles, does he need to die? can’t he just disappear? if he has risen someone else from death, can he do it himself? i can ask questions all day long and argue all night with no point.

    if your non-christian i understand the “reason” you may have and the difficulty to “believe” that someone dad can come back alive, although it happened just a month before Jesus for the first time in history.
    i can understand you having difficulty to believe that someone can ascend to heavens in his body, although it happened 6000 years before Jesus with prophet Elias.
    but if you are christian, then it is simple to believe that one and only God the creator of earth and heavens descended to earth died for mankind and has risen from the death according to the scriptures.
    first we (Christians) don’t believe in multiple gods like some may think, we believe in one holy trinity one in essence, what the father does so does the son and the holy spirit everything is done by the trinity. when Christ was baptized the holy spirit was present in the form of a pigeon and the father was there watching over him and calling him ” this is my son”
    back to the cross the crussification witnesses the trinity in full action, the son on the cross the father in the earth quake and the spirit in the form of an angel. if you don’t believe that god was on earth in the form of a human body all this technical conversation makes no sense.
    if you stick to your thoughts and beliefs that Jesus was only a prophet like any other with special powers, it is going to be hard to explain anything to you – actually there is no point explaining, faith doesn’t need reason, and live off hope. if Jesus was a prophet for you then it is understandable to doubt everything he did,
    for me he was God on earth, we have a traditional saying in orthodoxy – “God became man so men can become gods”
    did he need to? of course not. did he need to die? no definitely not.

    so why all this drama then? why would god become a man and die? before i answer you, let me ask you, why did he create us in the first place? did he need to? of course not. was he bored? ask him he might answer you.
    so why create humanity? then give them a brain to think and make them sin and kill and do crimes?
    is he evil that much? never.
    the answer is really really simple you have a choice, you have a brain and a heart that’s what makes you human. did god need to experience how does it feel like to be human? no why would he need to he created us from nothing.
    to answer all this, is a straight forward mechanism, “love” love to the creation. if you take care of your son and send him to school and teach him and ensure his safety, what do you expect god to do with you?
    god left in us his special creation a very special thing which is reason, and choice. you may abandon him, or stick by his side, up to you. but i assure you he will do everything possible to have you back. and that is what he did by coming to earth, this can look like non sense to lot of people and beyond reason, unfortunately there is no justification to faith.

    to answer you question where does it say in the bible he died for our sins? john 1: 29
    29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
    we all know a lamb is meant to die so others can enjoy life.
    you may also want to look up the whole verse since it clearly states who is Jesus:

    i picked some for you:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth….
    30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me….
    also on a side note:
    john 3:
    13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
    16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

  396. bashir skaf

    July 31, 2014 at 9:57 pm

    to answer Ghulam Sarwar of the presence of trinity in OT.
    first you need to understand why the “God of old testament” refereed to himself as the one and only.
    Jews used to believe in multiple Gods like the son and the wind and rain and so on, and he needed to explain to them that there is only one God creator of all things visible and invisible, how can you explain to someone that there is only “me” if you represent yourself as “three” it would make no sense, and would confuse the people as to whom they worship.

    i will list events from O.T that proves that God is a “Trinity” to call it unfair is exaggerating, as you are directly attacking someone’s faith.
    i don’t need to defend, but i will explain that we do not worship multiple gods, we worship one and only God. one in essence, we call the holy trinity, the father and the son and the holy spirit, these are not different persons or gods, these are only one god, represented in three hypo-stasis, each one has their own qualities, think of it like the sun as an example, the sun is a planet it is hot and gives light, these are all characteristics of one thing the sun the light and the heat are different, the origin is the planet itself the heat is generated by the combustion of the gas on the planet the light is a result of the burning star. it doesnt make it three things when talking about it, although i can say that the sun is the source of light, but you can say the sun is a burning star, these are not two different things it is two different topics speaking about one thing.

    so it trinity, the father’s job is the creation, the son’s job is “salvation” and the holy spirit job is guidance, it doesn’t make God a multiple of gods, it is one god with different qualities.

    now to answer yourt question about O.T

    here you go you asked for it:
    The doctrine of the Trinity is interwoven throughout the entire warp and woof of the Old Testament; it is not merely found in a discrete passage or proof-text here and there. For example, from the beginning to the end of the Old Testament, plural nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs and adjectives are regularly used for God, at least in the Hebrew text. A cursory list follows:

    The word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.
    A number of passages speak of the “faces” or “presences” or “persons” of God (Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 4:37; and Job 13:8).
    God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),2 a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.
    The OT says of God, “they caused me to wander” (Genesis 20:13), “they appeared” (Genesis 35:7), “they drew nigh” (Deuteronomy 4:7), “they went” (2 Samuel 7:23), and “they judge” (Psalm 58:11).
    The OT calls God our “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1), “Makers” and “Husbands” (Job 35:10; Psalm 149:2; Isaiah 54:5).
    The OT says that God is “holy” (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 9:10, 30:33), another plural.
    All of this (and more) can be found in the Old Testament in spite of the fact that singular words are readily available in each instance where these words occur. If the prophetic authors of the Bible were unitarians, we wouldn’t expect them to speak about God in this way. Indeed, unitarians do not typically speak this way in ordinary conversation and fall all over themselves trying to explain them when they are brought up (taken from below)

    i strongly suggest that you pick an OT and read the passages.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html

    psalm 110:
    110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    who is king David talking about? who’s his lord? he was the king.
    Amos 4:10-11
    11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

    who is the Lord? and who is God? is he talking about two different people?
    same below:
    Jeremiah 50:40
    40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the Lord; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

    go back to the old testament you either think God is nuts and crazy talking to himself like that or you think that God is talking about someone else with him

    the three angels that visited Abraham go back to the story, it shows you 3 men entered to Abraham and only one spoke to him telling him his wife will give birth to a son. then they disappeared.

    why did the OT have to picture God as three guests? why not one guest? one wasn’t enough to tell him his wife is pregnant?

    i’ll leave it at that

  397. Ashok Saldanha

    August 1, 2014 at 11:14 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, Jesus said “Before Abraham was I AM” and also “There is something MUCH GREATER than Jonah here”. So that puts paid to your “Jesus was a messenger, subservient to Moses”
    Jesus NEVER had the blemish of sin on Him. Jesus FORGAVE SINS and ONLY God can forgive sins.

  398. Ashok Saldanha

    August 2, 2014 at 12:02 am

    Zia Shah, I wonder what the Christ meant by saying “Go and baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and the Spirit”?

  399. Ahmed Qureshi

    August 2, 2014 at 8:17 am

    Baptize the Israelis of course. Where Jesus says Baptiste gentiles?

  400. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 2, 2014 at 9:43 am

    @bashir skaf :
    July 31, 2014 at 9:23 pm
    ———————————
    Thank you for taking so much trouble to make a very long post. By your post you have raised many more problems for yourself. You have said “Reason is not required for belief…”. That makes you unreasonable. Can you please see that you have started off on the wrong foot? Reason, intellect, experience, five senses, knowledge, wisdom and rationality, all are required, even more than that. We need guidance from God in the shape of revelation too, which comes through the Holy Spirit.
    If you do not need reason then our talk is useless.
    I am not attacking your religion. I have the right to discuss your faith or part of your faith with reasons and proofs from your book (Bible). That is not attacking. It is necessary to get back to you because your missionaries are preaching to our Muslim children.
    You have complicated the matter under discussion. We Muslims believe in Jesus as a man of God. He appeared on earth as man, as the son of Mary. He had a worldly father too (Joseph ) but still we call him Jesus son of Mary, son of a lady, a pious lady.
    While he was alive, he was known as the son of Joseph the carpenter. At least for thirty years, he was known as son of Joseph. We do not know exactly when he was known as son of God. Did his mother Mary say that Jesus was son of God??
    I believe he was a Jew and a prophet amongst the Jews (This is mentioned in Bible NT, some people considered him as a prophet). He followed the Jewish law. I will not write too much on all the good works that he did and tried to do. He was a perfect man and truly followed the law of Moses a.s. That means he considered himself as a human being and never had another God beside the ONE GOD of Israel.
    If he had believed or taught even one day against that ONE GOD theology, he would have been caught on the first day and nobody would have followed him. But we know that multitude of poor simple God fearing people followed him.
    Jesus never wanted to start a new religion. I am sorry, I cannot write too much on these things as it might hurt you. But please consider what I have described above. We can leave the subject of Trinity ( A three pronged God) and a god praying to some other god and a god dying like humans, and a god who is a perfect man and perfect god at the same time,,,, and three gods in ONE GOD,,, we will take up if other matters are amicably settled. Thank you.

  401. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 2, 2014 at 9:56 am

    @Ashok Saldanha
    August 2, 2014 at 12:02 am

    Zia Shah, I wonder what the Christ meant by saying “Go and baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and the Spirit”?
    ———————————-
    Dear Ashok, those words of Jesus a.s. are good and correct. We must not take wrong meaning of those good words.
    It is same as the Muslim creed “There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is His messenger.”
    The name of Muhammad is mentioned along with the name of Allah, the only One God.
    Jesus told his followers that they should preach in the name of the Father (i.e. God Almighty), the son (that is Jesus, spiritual son) and the holy ghost (That is the angel who used to bring messages to all prophets, that is called Holy Spirit).
    It was necessary to teach like that because when you as a Christian will preach to people, they will ask you wherefrom you are bringing these good things? you will have to say that they are from God Almighty.
    If they ask how and who got them from God, you have to give the name of Jesus a.s. That is a must.
    Then it will be necessary to mention the holy Spirit too which supported Jesus all the time. Holy Spirit was with him all the time.
    So the advice was good to preach in the name of Father, son and Holy Spirit.
    But it did not mean that son and Holy Ghost should be made a part and parcel of God Almighty. Jesus never said that they should be made into Gods. Wassalam.

  402. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 2, 2014 at 10:12 am

    Ashok, as to your mentioning “Before Abraham I am.” It does not make Jesus greater than Abraham. Jesus told his friends or audience not to refer anything about Abraham. Abraham was no more present. But Jesus was present before them.
    Otherwise it would be a meaningless English language sentence.
    Also, Jesus being greater than Jonah i.e. ” There is something MUCH GREATER than Jonah here”. is correct. Jesus could be greater than all the other messengers in the Jewish line.
    Prophet Jonah had made a small mistake due to misunderstanding the message from God. For that he had to suffer much. Because of his mistake, the people of Ninevah were saved from punishment.
    Jesus was giving the example of prophet Jonah to his people to behave. He was warning the Jewish people of the punishment that they will get if they did not follow Jesus a.s.
    Another good point in favor of Jesus a.s. is that he withstood the suffering on the cross amongst his people and did not leave the people before crucifixion until it was impossible for him to live there (and preach freely).

  403. Ashok Saldanha

    August 2, 2014 at 10:54 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, One thing YOU HAVE “FORGOTTEN” to “explain” to my 3 points of “Christ CLAIM TO DIVINITY” is my last para where I wrote “Jesus NEVER had the blemish of sin on Him. Jesus FORGAVE SINS and ONLY God can forgive sins.”

  404. Ashok Saldanha

    August 2, 2014 at 11:00 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, when the koran clearly says that the Trinity consists of Father, Jesus & Mary, I wonder how you brought in an Angel and made him the Holy Spirit.
    You say “Mohammed is his messenger” does the use of the word “messenger” make Mohammed the “Holy Spirit”?
    I think not. You are tying yourselv in knots.

    When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.

    Not 1+1+1 like you say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.

  405. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 3, 2014 at 6:46 pm

    I request Ashok and other Christian supporters to please follow the above link which is all from Bible NT. It is very useful. Jesus always prayed to God the father and never to himself and never to the Holy Spirit. Wassalam.

  406. Ashok Saldanha

    August 3, 2014 at 11:28 pm

    Zia Shah, again you have come a full circle. Jesus was the Word made flesh and as flesh (human) He prayed to God. He got tired, depressed, sad, cried and had all the emotions of humans which is shown clearly in the NT as well as He had all the qualities of the Divine also clearly shown in the NT.
    He knew exacltly what was to befall Him and as a human got depressed. He could have easily got out of the situation, BUT NO He had a mission to fulfil which He completed on the Cross.
    There is no “praying to the Holy Shost” because this would mean according to the koran praying to Mohammed who as “messenger” (Ref. Ghulam Sarwar) is the holy spirit.
    Moreover since Christians believe in ONE God (whatever the koran says), Jesus as a human was praying to God.

  407. Zia Shah

    August 4, 2014 at 2:57 am

    Dear Ashok Saldanha, please read your Nicene creed again and also show us when God the Father and Holy Ghost were also praying to each other and at times to Jesus? After all they are all equal, according to your understanding.

    For your convenience, here is the creed from Encyclopedia Britannica:

    The Nicene Creed was originally written in Greek. Its principal liturgical use is in the Eucharist in the West and in both Baptism and the Eucharist in the East. A modern English version of the text is as follows:

    We believe in one God,

    the Father, the Almighty,

    maker of heaven and earth,

    of all that is seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    the only Son of God,

    eternally begotten of the Father,

    God from God, Light from Light,

    true God from true God,

    begotten, not made, one in Being with the

    Father.

    Through him all things were made.

    For us men and for our salvation

    he came down from heaven:

    by the power of the Holy Spirit

    he was born of the Virgin Mary, and

    became man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius

    Pilate;

    he suffered, died, and was buried.

    On the third day he rose again

    in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

    he ascended into heaven

    and is seated on the right hand of the

    Father.

    He will come again in glory

    to judge the living and the dead,

    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the

    giver of life,

    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

    With the Father and the Son he is worshipped

    and glorified.

    He has spoken through the Prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic

    Church.

    We acknowledge one baptism for the

    forgiveness of sins.

    We look for the resurrection of the dead,

    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/413955/Nicene-Creed

    It also seems that Pontius Pilate is also an “Essential,” to understand the Christian Triune God, as he is included in the Nicene Creed!

    Please also advise, as Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, one third of the Triune God was dead, who raised him from the dead?

  408. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    August 4, 2014 at 6:35 am

    ‘Word made flesh’ (?) Can we not just say that this is ‘beyond us’? ‘Flesh made Soup’ may be more understandable…

  409. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 4, 2014 at 4:45 pm

    @Ashok Saldanha: Ghulam Sarwar, when the koran clearly says that the Trinity consists of Father, Jesus & Mary, I wonder how you brought in an Angel and made him the Holy Spirit.
    Reply: Quran never says Trinity consists of Father, Jesus and Mary. It refers to the worship of Mary by the Christians.
    —————————-
    You say “Mohammed is his messenger” does the use of the word “messenger” make Mohammed the “Holy Spirit”?
    Reply: No. Holy Spirit is an angel who is also a messenger, that is angel Gabriel. Muhammad is a human messenger for the mankind just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham are prophets and messengers for mankind….
    ————————————-
    When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.
    Not 1+1+1 like you say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.
    Reply: That is not true that Jesus talked about Triune God. That matter has been explained to you separately, if you care. If you add, three gods will be there for you.
    If you multiply, multiple gods will still be there. And in that case you need not stop at your three gods. You can have infinite number of gods because
    INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY = INFINITY.
    It is not equal to TRINITY or equal to ONE. So you lose the THREE and the ONE God.

  410. Ashok Saldanha

    August 4, 2014 at 10:02 pm

    Rafiq A. Tschannen, YOU BLASPHEME.
    Jesus is referred to as a “Word” from God in three passages in the koran. No other prophet has been described with such a title.

    Christians believe that Christ is the Word of God made Flesh that is BECOME MAN.

  411. Ashok Saldanha

    August 5, 2014 at 5:29 am

    Ghulam Sarwar, if you think you are playing a game about losing and winning, GROW UP!
    Whom would you believe Witnesses who were alive at the moment when Christ died and rose again or something written 650 years after the fact.
    IT IS EASY to dismiss what you don’t understand or what YOU DONT WANT TO UNDERSTAND.

  412. Zia Shah

    August 5, 2014 at 7:16 am

    Ashok Saldanha, a tornado of logic and arguments, have blown away dogma of Christianity in this post, including the comments and you are behaving as if nothing has happened.

    Bravo!

    Reminded me of some of the verses of the Holy Quran:

    Those who have disbelieved — it being equal to them whether thou warn them or warn them not — they will not believe.

    Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a great punishment. (Al Quran 2:7-8)

    I think the only thing left for you to read is:

    Kripkean Dogmatism: The Best Metaphor to Understand Religious and Political Debates

  413. Plain Truth

    August 5, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    Be sure of ONE thing Holy Jesus was a Prophet & never was crucified as witnessed in Holy Quran.
    So was confirmed by the St.Barnabas.
    Psalm 91 4to 12 is clear that He was protected by ALLAH’s Angel & was never crucified.
    Luke 4:10-12 Also witness He was not Crucified.
    It most probable The Enemy of Holy Jesus known as Juda Isacret was miraculously turned to the Appearence of Holy Jesus & was crucified.
    Also note Sir Isaac Newton was a Muslim at heart.
    As contained in BBC vedio & supported by other Professors. Thanks.

  414. corne

    August 5, 2014 at 4:19 pm

    It sadens me that you don’t see that there is no wisdom in the words you speak. I wish you would read the bible fully and that God gives you the wisdom to understand what it says.

  415. Ashok Saldanha

    August 5, 2014 at 9:32 pm

    & now we have someone called “PLAIN TRUTH” telling us that Isaac Newton was a “muslim at heart” while Dan Brown called him an “Illuminati”
    and according to the koran everyone from Adam down is or was a muslim.

    It is a known fact that Mohammed was influenced by apocryphal Gospels in circulation around 350 AD for his “revelations” on Christ.

  416. Zia Shah

    August 7, 2014 at 3:47 am

    Comments by Christian apologists that engage the arguments being presented here are more likely to be approved than those putting a new spin on the facts at hand or those suggesting new ways of obsession with Jesus of Nazareth, a noble prophet of God.

  417. Ashok Saldanha

    August 7, 2014 at 4:10 am

    Zia Shah, Now I hope you post this as it is as you say “engaging the arguments presented here”
    I think trying to get out of the web you have spun for yourself by posting what you have? No one is putting a new spin on anything. When you keep on publishing the same set of links and posts regarding Christ, then you will get the same type of posts in defense.

  418. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 7, 2014 at 9:32 am

    @Ashok:It is a known fact that Mohammed was influenced by apocryphal Gospels in circulation around 350 AD for his “revelations” on Christ
    —————————
    Ashok, you are beyond repair. can you show me anything in the Quran that you had in your Bible? or in any Apocryphal Bible? Please come down to realities. We have provided you enough material but you have ignored all.
    See what says a famous German Philosopher JW Goethe:
    Narrisch das jeder im seinem falle,
    Seine besondere meinung Preisst!
    Wenn Islam Gott ergeben heist,
    Im islam lieben und sterben wir Alle.
    Trans: It is useless to praise oneself by own mouth. If Islam means submission to God then we all live and die as Muslims.
    (And Islam indeed means submission to One God. The name of our faith is not based on any man’s name or places name.)

  419. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 7, 2014 at 9:37 am

    Ashok, if what you are saying is right then You are admitting that your leaders, in year 325 AD destroyed much useful material. Your church leaders had hidden (burnt) much truth from the world.

  420. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 7, 2014 at 10:46 am

    Now about Sir Issac Newton, from “Revelation, rationality, knowledge and Truth”:
    ——————————–
    In conclusion, Scotus advises that the validity of one’s faith should be examined from time to time according to the dictates of rationality. If the two appear to be conflicting then one must follow reason. Thus reason will always hold an edge over faith.

    This attitude is best illustrated in Newton’s (1642–1727) treatment of the Trinity. As long as he did not consciously and scientifically examine his inherited religious views, he continued to remain a devotee of the doctrine. But when at a later stage he decided to put his faith to the test of reason and rationality, he was left with no option but to reject the dogma of Trinity which in his view had failed the test of reason.

    Thus he became the all-time greatest victim of the prejudices of the Christian church sacrificed at the altar of the cross. As a tribute to the genius of Newton, he was elected as a Fellow of the “College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity”, University of Cambridge, a post which he held for many years. In 1675 however, he was given the choice to either vacate his seat and keep his convictions, or to compromise his convictions and assert his orthodoxy under oath one last time in ordination.

    But the “Holy and Undivided Trinity” itself stood in his way. His stubborn refusal to subscribe to the doctrine of Trinity cost him not only his fellowship, but also the handsome stipend of £60 a year. No small amount indeed, judging by the value of money in those days. He was dispossessed of his fellowship and chair from the university on the charge of heresy. The charge of heresy was levelled against him only because in Newton’s eyes worshipping Christ was idolatry, to him a fundamental sin. R.S. Westfall writes on Newton:

    ‘He recognized Christ as a divine mediator between God and humankind, who was subordinate to the Father Who created him.’1

    ‘The conviction began to possess him that a massive fraud, which began in the fourth and fifth centuries, had perverted the legacy of the early church. Central to the fraud were the Scriptures, which Newton began to believe had been corrupted to support Trinitarianism. It is impossible to say exactly when the conviction fastened upon him. The original notes themselves testify to earlier doubts. Far from silencing the doubts, he let them possess him.’2

    Hence, his faith in the Unity of God and rejection of the Trinity was based on his unbiased, honest investigation into the validity of Christian beliefs. There is many a note written in his own hand on the margins of his personal Bible.

  421. Christian

    August 12, 2014 at 6:49 pm

    No denomination is 100% right, plain and simple. To deny Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead is pure blasphemy. To pick apart my Bible, my Scripture, my Lord and Savior, only to make yourself and your faith more believable has the opposite effect. It proves even more that the Christian faith is the only path to Paradise. Trying to create negativity only brings attention to the subject in the story, Jesus Christ. You help open the lost sheep’s eyes to Jesus and discover or even re-discover Him. I believe the truth. It is not rocket science. My God does NOT require me to kill in the name of Him. My God does not require me to pray the same thing multiple times a day. My God does not require all these distractions and preparations in order to glorify Him. Do you even understand what the word glorify means? It is to make visible. Observe someone, not listen to what they say about themselves. If you see God working in him without it being told to you, then that person is allowing God to use him to his fullest potential. My Paradise will be nothing my tiny human mind could ever conceive. My reward when I reach heaven is non-specific. It will just be beyond anything I can imagine. Everyone who has died in the name of allah will be in hell, that is clear. It is not my judgment, only the facts as presented by God the Father of ALL MANKIND whose one and only Son is Christ Jesus. Muhammad is dead. His bones can be found. allah is a figment of an under educated mind. That does not make you stupid however. Continuing to believe that after the proof that Jesus presents to us everyday…IS.
    I love you and everyone else in the world and can do so from a distance for now until you and your fellow sheep come home. Everyone is called but many will not come. Jesus will return when the last sheep returns. Until then, I will continue to love Him, not because it is the Greatest Commandment, but because love is more powerful than anything by far and only comes from Jesus. Tomorrow is not promised so I can only ask for you to remember that context is king. Many groups such as yours have manipulated Scripture to suit your needs, not God’s. Just stop it because it is silly. I am not promised 72 raisins(yeah, I said raisins because your own text from the yellow journalism that is the quran was manipulated to say virgins many ages ago. look it up and stop dodging the fact. Sure, the truth hurts sometimes but we can learn from it. It is hard to give up a certain way of life especially if you were groomed that way since birth and your childhood was robbed from you because your parents, or you father for that matter since you treat women like rabid dogs, taught you this nonsense because he himself was abused as a child. Let your kids be kids, adulthood sucks. Give them what you did not have. Let them learn by making their own mistakes but also provide a safe haven for them to return to and “lick their wounds” so to speak. You learn from people whom you respect on your own free will. The respect you claim your children have for their parents is not from free will, it is through grooming, manipulation, brainwashing, and threats of death for failure to comply using the mythical allah to co-sign your directives. Here is what it comes down to: Scripture from God, the Father of Jesus is the best way to live. No need to believe in heaven at first, it will come. This way, you will enjoy a healthy, bountiful, abundantly blessed life, and if there is a heaven, BONUS!!!
    God bless my brothers and sisters. The road is difficult and filled with challenges, and even worse, the gate is narrow. Get on track before it is too late. The time is near. Goodnight.

  422. Nick

    August 12, 2014 at 8:19 pm

    I was saddened when I saw this Muslim author passive-aggressively attacking Christian faith in this article.

    I truly find all 65 assertions here to be misleading. The Bible must be read in faith, or it’s meaning is hidden from you.

    1. Why crucifixion?
    The Jews wanted to prove Jesus wasn’t God, because God would save him, as you say. But why would God save Jesus? Dying on the cross fulfills scripture, Jesus actually stopped his disciples from defending him just to make sure he got to the cross! Jesus is perfect and sinless, and therefore his blood fulfills the law, and our sins our forgiven.

    2. The Pharisees wanted him crucified, if that’s what your asking. They believed he was blasphemous for saying he was God.

    3. Yes, the Jews did want him crucified. We all agree that this happened.

    4. Many aspects: There are always different perspectives, I do see anything to respond to. Jesus died for our sins, he was betrayed, he was accused of Blasphemy … these are all facts but there is no argument for me…

    5. Hiding: Jesus was not hiding the night he was captured, in fact he had years of experience hiding from people trying to kill him. Only after the Last Supper, after he had announced his death and the betrayal, and finished his ministry did he allow himself to be captured so that scripture could be fulfilled.

    6. Jesus prayed to be saved, not wanting to die … WRONG.

    He’s literally talking about a cup, not himself.

    LESSON: Jews had a tradition of drinking and passing a cup, and the one finishing the cup had to also finish all the thick remnants that remained at the bottom. Jesus spoke of having this “cup of sin” passed from him … meaning he was praying not to be saved, but to take every last “drop of sin” from mankind, and not miss anything. This is the love he demonstrates, it is the reason Christianity was born.

    ***SEE # 31, duplicate :)

    7. This is out of context and there is a typo. First of all, Jesus is THANKING God, not “thinking”. Second, he says this for the benefit of the people, which is mentioned within the context.

    8. Jesus helped by an Angel? Why? … Remember that Jesus was in a man’s body, he felt hunger and thirst and weakness. There is nothing strange about an Angel helping and encouraging him, this was a very difficult time for Jesus.

    9. A quick death: Jesus had a particularly gruesome experience as an alleged blasphemer, and likely died quickly due to his previous injuries and blood loss.

    ***See #14, duplicate :)

    10. I agree, Pilate tried to save him, perhaps for his wife. This is not an argument against the fact that it did happen, the Jews were nearly rioting according to scripture.

    11. God does not lie, he is perfect. You suggest God should have planted a false dream, but Christians find great offense in that! The whole purpose of life is to “save souls” from wandering away from heaven. That mission is sacred and selfless. Her dream likely saved her soul, and perhaps even her husbands and many others she met as she shared her experience. I too would have given her that dream. Life does not matter, but the spirit matters.

    12. Pilate found him innocent. Again, this is a fact, yes. But it does not change what happened.

    13. Earthquake = Anger. Yes, God was angry, to kill Jesus is a great sin. But do not misinterpret that anger: this was necessary, but that does not make it any less of a sin. Second, also consider this: the earthly death of God could be expected to cause an Earthquake. Third, this earthquake directly symbolizes the new direct connection we have with God. This is how Christian prayers are always answered, “true” Christians are very happy and safe.

    14. See #9

    15. No unanswered argument here

    16. Fluid dynamics are exactly the same in a dead body as in a living body. If that doesn’t satisfy you, consider the awkward body position during crucifixion. Go and slaughter a sheep and the tremendous amount of blood in a dead animal will become apparent to you.

    17. Well … I can’t help that you don’t like how Romans checked for life. But if you must know, stabbing an unconscious person wakes them up. I suppose the two living ones were breathing, which was enough to see they were alive without stabbing them.

    18. This is just a fact. Why break his legs if he is dead?

    19. You are right to say that burials are custom for “most” Jews, but wrong to assert that entombments don’t happen. They happened then, and they happen now.

    20. This doesn’t make sense due to # 17. They confirmed he was dead … on the cross. There is no question.

    God loves you, and maybe that’s why your reading this. He hopes you will find the wisdom to come to him. As a gift I’ve made an honest attempt to guide you through the first 20 points here, and if you like my answers, perhaps you can find the faith in our Messiah and go through the rest.

  423. Luca Lambruschini

    August 13, 2014 at 5:44 am

    I am a Christian, but very open and sincerely interested in Islam apologetic. I see the discussion always flows into incoherence of the Bible, different interpretations and misinterpretations of Biblical accounts and Quran and Quran accounts.
    Let’s leave any sacred book apart for a moment.
    There is one thing that keeps running in my mind that is never answered. There are tons of historians, some of the caliber of Tacitus and Josephus which make clear that Jesus dies. No one of them denies it. The issue is that is we say even those 2 historians are saying the false, then we have to deny 95% of the entire history as we know it today. This is already a big issue, but even bigger if we consider that a mountain of other accounts and archaeological discoveries are confirming Tacitus and Josephus in almost all else they write apart from Jesus.
    Please! Is there somebody that can answer this my dilemma on historical basis WITHOUT citing Bible or Quran or any other religious book? This is tormenting me! Where is history on the claim that Jesus did not die? I need to know.

  424. Zia Shah

    August 13, 2014 at 7:20 am

    Luca the point is that you want to bet your salvation and religion on something better than two flimsy accounts from two historians.

    Can you please quote what these historians exactly said about Jesus and who were the publisher of these books, what year were they published and how many copies?

    It is one thing to say that there was a Plato or a Socrates, because we have some historical account of them and another to base a civilization or religion on two thousand year old stories of unreliable nature.

    Else where I have talked about other man-gods from the same time as Jesus, who according to Islam was a noble prophet of God, like Moses, David, Solomon and John the Baptist.

  425. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 13, 2014 at 9:01 am

    Who is more reliable than the close friends of Jesus? If we look into the gospels, the news about death of Jesus is only when he was brought down from cross. That means he appeared to be dead. To say that Jesus was still alive would have been very dangerous.
    After that there is no mention of death. There is only RISEN.
    There also in Gospels, it is not mentioned that Jesus had risen from death. There is only the word RISEN.
    Why we should go far afield to Josephus etc? Why not look into the Bible (And Quran) with rationale? There is no need to reject Bible and favor history. We should reject Josephus on the subject of Jesus because he (Josephus) is not directly concerned.

  426. Nick

    August 13, 2014 at 10:46 am

    ZIA SHAH, HERE IS A SHORT LIST OF EVIDENCE FOR JESUS

    ***Jesus Christ is perhaps the most well documented and historically provable figure in antiquity!

    TIP: When looking for a black hole in space, you can’t see the black hole, but you know its there because of it’s effects on nearby stars.

    1. PAUL: The apostle Paul, who is well proven to have existed, spoke to Jesus’ brother James, twice. It would have been impossible for Paul to make this up with all the attention on him. If his brother existed, and people were ok calling him the brother of Jesus, it follows that Jesus existed.

    ABOVE, LUCA MENTIONED JOSEPHUS AND TACITUS…
    2. FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS has a passage in The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, which also references Jesus’ brother. “and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James,”. Josephus mentions Jesus and his biblical qualities in other writings such as The Jewish War as well, which were possibly edited, but point back to the Antiquities of the Jews.

    3. CORNELIUS TACITUS makes Jesus crucifixion a matter of official historical record, after Emperor Nero blamed Christians for a great Roman fire of 6 days. “Christus, … , suffered the extreme penalty … at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.” Book 15 Ch 44

    4. OSSUARY: A 2,000 year old small stone box called, see “Ossuary,” has an unverified inscription claiming to be of Jesus brother. An attempt by false witnesses to discredit the box was dis-proven, so testing is still in process as for the reliability of the inscription, although top paleographers agree it is authentic, and also authentic patina has been found in the letters.

    5. SOCIOLOGY: many religions followed Christianity – and it’s noted by sociologists who study them that for new religions to succeed, they tend to need a powerful figurehead to get it started. The original believers (the spark), need to see the figurehead in the flesh to create massive interest and growth. Jesus needed to be physically present for Christianity to work, he’s like the spark plug of an engine.

    6. HUMILIATING ORIGINS. In those times, crucifixion was a humiliating way to die. This type of death would have been embarrassing for Christians to talk about, so they certainly did not create this story, and the Jews would not have created it either, as it would have been more efficient for him to be lost in history and forgotten. The only escape from this logical conundrum is that Jesus was crucified.

    7. THE NEW TESTAMENT. Although many dismiss the idea that the Bible can prove itself, the New Testament is supported through overwhelming evidence to be an accurate historic document.

    8. PLINY THE YOUNGER (lawyer&Magistrate) to Emperor Trajan: These letters reveal very early accounts of Christians and their thoughts on Christ … they believed in his divinity, and also they thought of him as a man (historical figure).

    9. ISLAM: Muslims believe in Jesus, although not the way Christians do. If Jesus did not exist, than both Islam and Christianity would fail.

    10. YESHU: The Babylonian Talmud says: “On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.” In Hebrew, it seems that Jesus is pronounced as Yeshu. BTW, hanged is a synonym for crucified (see Galations and Luke for examples).

    11. LACK OF JEWISH DENIAL: The Pharisees claimed Jesus performed miracles through Beelzebul, and they also claimed he performed sorcery. They could not deny his works, only misconstrue them. They also claimed he was successfully misleading the nation, pointing to his powerful teaching practices.

    12. LUCIAN of Samosata: “The Christians . . . worship a man to this day–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.” Notice that this Greek Satirist references Jesus as a man.

    13. SEXTUS JULIUS AFRICANUS: “An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.”

    14. Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (Roman Historian): Reported that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ”

    Closing: Although I have provided some starting points for your research into Jesus existence, this is NOT the right way to find faith. Faith comes from the heart, not from the eyes. These questions put God to the test, and that is an evil. With your whole heart, ask Jesus for your faith, and it will be given to you freely, and you will be happy.

  427. Zia Shah

    August 13, 2014 at 11:26 am

    Nick you are a smart man and have collected some historical materials, may be you can answer two questions that no Christian has tried to answer before.

    1. As Jesus lay dead for three days and three nights, a third of the Triune God was dead, who raised him from the dead?

    2. How did the human and divine nature of Jesus co-exist. Before answering this please read the following article:

    Breaking News: Jesus Always Prayed to God the Father, Never to Himself or the Holy Ghost

  428. Luca Lambruschini

    August 14, 2014 at 7:16 am

    Zia Shah, unless you are reasoning on mere history about a religion, then the most important thing in trying understanding concepts of another religion is to temporarily set your mind to reason on the basis of the religion you are analyzing.
    This is why my question did not want to be about faith, but history or otherwise I would have posed it in a completely different way.

    Now, while my question of pure history still remains open and unanswered, the 2 questions you pose here about Jesus deity are religious questions – not historical. So in order to answer (and I can try do it in outlines for you) you should put yourself in the mindset of a Christian and reason on their basis, not on Islam’s basis:

    2) God is omnipotent and CAN everything. Jesus has two natures coexisting together.
    - Jesus’ human nature: as an example he ascended to heaven and he is no longer in the world (John 16:28; 17:11; Acts 1:9-11)
    - Jesus’ Divine nature: He is everywhere present (Matt 18:20; 28:20; John 14:23)
    Both natures are true in the person of Christ, he is returned to Heaven and He is always present with us.

    1)Looking at #2, in His human nature Jesus died (Luke 23:46; 1 Cor 15:3 and lots of historians), but His divine nature did not die and raised Himself (human nature) from the dead. (John 2:19; 10:17-18; Heb 7:16). When He died, his body died and His soul separated from His body and passed into the presence of His father (Luke 23:43-46). So He experienced a death that is similar to the one we believers experience if we die before Jesus returns. Seeing things this way, when Jesus died His power was not diminished, but His divine nature tasted what it was like to through death.

    It is extremely difficult to explain these concepts in a few lines. On your 2 questions, a book can be written – that is why maybe no Christians answered, but I hope I could give you the core idea that you cannot interpret Christianity reasoning as a Muslim as I cannot reason on Islam from Christian basis, neither I try because I know it’d be wrong in the results.
    This is why I was focusing only on pure history and my question wants to remain historical. If somebody can answer it with pure history I would be happy or otherwise, please just tell me that pure history cannot answer it and that is a totally valid honest answer for me.

  429. Zia Shah

    August 14, 2014 at 7:35 am

    I ask these difficult questions of my Christian brothers and sisters, not to hurt their feelings or to deprive them of their faith, but, to make them a little open to Islamic theology.

    Let me suggest some additional reading, for our Christian readers:

    How Islam has Influenced Christian understanding of God

  430. Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    August 14, 2014 at 9:31 am

    All the comments under this post can be summarize by one question: Can God do anything? If He can that he can exist in three forms.

    The answer is no. He cannot go against His being.
    We know from His attributes that He is the Truthful so He CANNOT lie. We know He eternal and everliving so HE CANNOT KILL HIMSELF.

    We are offering our Christian friends an opportunity to have an open discussion about God. They should have faith in God that the Truth will always prevail. So no need so be disrespectful of other’s views and no need so show non-Christ like attitude. Live up to the teachings of Jesus Christ!

    The fact that this post is bothering the conscience of our Christian friends is a proof enough to suggested that they should question their faith and accept the true teachings of Jesus Christ which is none other than the one offered by his spiritual brother Prophet Muhammad (sm).

    We love Jesus Christ (as) and because of our love were compelled to share his true teachings.

    May Allah guide us all.

  431. Luca Lambruschini

    August 14, 2014 at 9:32 am

    Zia Shah, absolutely no hurted feelings and that was not my intention too in my question, that is why I said immediately, let’s not use Bible or Quran, but only history, I really wanted and want for now to stay out of questions of faith until historical accounts are in front of my eyes.
    From the link you just published, we need to be careful to don’t place Catholics in the same group as Christians. There are many catholics I know, including my beloved aunt, that are very good christians (and maybe bad catholics…), but that is not the standard and their belief in salvation is completely different and their Bible is extremely different too.
    I’m sincerely sorry for all the discussion I caused. I just wanted to know if there are historical direct statements that Jesus did not die, it’s a simple question because I’m studying apologetic and do not want to hear only 1 side.

  432. Luca Lambruschini

    August 14, 2014 at 11:02 am

    Mirza Ghulam Rabbi, and everybody.

    I really sincerely apologize with all my heart if I hurt you or anybody. I thought I never been disrespectful, and if I was it was not my intention and God knows I’m not lying.
    I’m a student of theology and now studying apologetic and even if I’m a Christian I could not accept to hear only Christian speakers telling me that history proves Jesus died. I didn’t see that fair. I wanted to hear a real source from the other side.

    Again I apologize. I’m sorry. Sincerely.

  433. Zia Shah

    August 14, 2014 at 11:19 am

    In the following two books, you will find some historical evidence for the fact that Jesus did not die on the cross:

    Jesus in India

    If Jesus did not die upon the cross: A study in evidence

    In the following post, a few documentaries are linked on the same theme:

    Jesus did not die on the cross!

  434. Luca Lambruschini

    August 14, 2014 at 1:20 pm

    Thank you so much. Asalamu aleykum.
    Luca

  435. Nick

    August 14, 2014 at 2:59 pm

    ZIA, although I’ve answered the first 20 of the 65 questions above already, I readily accept your next challenge in defense of Jesus.

    1. Q: WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD:

    A: Jesus is God, and God cannot die, therefore the trinity was intact, and there is no reason why Jesus could not have been risen by his own will.
    Jesus dies = Jesus’ body died = Jesus’ soul lives

  436. Nick

    August 14, 2014 at 3:27 pm

    Mirza Ghulam Rabbi

    I believe the Holy Spirit is here testing you because “many” of these questions were not difficult to answer, so why did you include them? This article is extremely convincing for those who don’t understand the Bible. So I feel that this was a dishonest attack against Jesus. Jesus would tell me not to be a wolf toward Islam, but to be a dove in the spread of Jesus’ love. If I were to speak out against Islam, loyalty to God would require my absolute faith that every single question I pose has no answer you could give me … yet even that responsible form of attack would make me a wolf, not a dove.

  437. Ashok Saldanha

    August 14, 2014 at 9:20 pm

    Plural pronouns used of God PROVING THE TRINITY is God Himself.
    Two plural pronouns, (Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. The word God (Elohim) IS ALSO PLURAL EVERY TIME IT IS USED IN THE OT.
    1. “Then God (plural Elohim) said, “Let US (plural pronoun) make man in OUR (plural pronoun) image, according to OUR (plural pronoun) likeness” Genesis 1:26
    2. “Then Yahweh God (plural Elohim) said, “Behold, …… like one of US (plural pronoun) Gen. 3:22
    3. “Come, let US(plural pronoun) go down and there confuse…… understand one another’s speech.” Gen 11:7
    4. “Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural Elohim], saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for US [plural pronoun]?”” Is6:8

    AND When Christ said “Go baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit” He was talking about the Triune Godhead. ONE GOD.
    Not 1+1+1 like Muslims say BUT 1x1x1 or INFINITY x INFINITY x INFINITY.

  438. Zia Shah

    August 15, 2014 at 1:55 am

    Dear Ashok Saldana, why such fuss to prove some nonsense.

    If:

    1x1x1 = 1

    So is:

    1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 = 1

    The Hindu understanding of millions of gods must be true?

  439. Zia Shah

    August 15, 2014 at 1:59 am

    Nick with his “Christian” logic has presumably answered one of my questions.

    He says:

    Q: WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD:

    A: Jesus is God, and God cannot die, therefore the trinity was intact, and there is no reason why Jesus could not have been risen by his own will.
    Jesus dies = Jesus’ body died = Jesus’ soul lives

    I find it very interesting. Sometimes Christians say “orange,” and mean an “apple,” and at other times “orange,” is an “orange.” If you are not confused by this simple switch, Christian apologists can throw in additional fruits, sometimes even vegetables.

    The “Christian” logic allows for this switching of realities. Sometimes one is three and three is one and sometimes the numbers hold. Sometimes Jesus is man and sometimes he is god and sometimes he is both, finite and infinite, vulnerable and infinite, ignorant and All Knowing, sinful and divine, humble and All Powerful. Go figure.

    But, let us analyse who died and who raised whom from the dead.

    Now, Jesus has two natures, human and divine, according to the official Christian dogma. God the Father had sent His son to die for the sins of humans, presumably the divine part of Jesus was to die, but, according to Nick that never happened.

    Son of God never died only son of Mary did.

    Just another man died on the cross, like billions others. There is no atonement, no vicarious payment, Jesus “son of God,” did not die. Mystery solved!

  440. Ashok Saldanha

    August 15, 2014 at 5:54 pm

    Zia Shah,
    How come you went for 1x1x1x1x1x=1 & Hinduism AND MISSED OUT Infinity x Infinity x Infinity = INFINITY?
    and I cant see any rebuttal to the verses from the Bible which show:
    Plural pronouns used of God PROVING THE TRINITY is God Himself.

  441. Nick

    August 15, 2014 at 5:57 pm

    Ashok, that was a great example, I should have just used that, lol. Would have made the Trinity so much easier to explain!!!

    Zia, I don’t think you understood the 1x1x1. The Trinity is considered to be something a human mind cannot understand yet … however, we “TRY” to describe it for students as best we can like this: 1x1x1 = 1, rather than 1+1+1=3. This just makes it comprehendable as a learning tool, that’s all it means. It does not mean there are millions of Gods, that comment was disrespectful and you know that.

    For example:***You use the word dogma! Really? Do you even realize that every question you’ve posed to me I’ve answered, and that therefore your attacks are essentially the definition of dogma?

    I will stop you now: You have asked me enough questions and I have answered them … now I ask you one: Why are you so disrespectful towards peaceful people? Do you not see that you are attacking, and I am defending? Do you not see that I am not attacking? Do you not see you offend peace? Why are you angry if you are the one attacking? Why do you use words like dogma? I love my God, why does that offend you?

    But wait, you did ask one final question: So, as for your assertion that my claim is incorrect, you are again attacking a teaching tool! Stop attacking! It’s 1x1x1 all over again! It is very easy to comprehend that Jesus body died, but yet he lives! This is a gift of understanding!

  442. Ashok Saldanha

    August 15, 2014 at 6:02 pm

    Zia Shah,

    Everytime you question the veracity of the Bible you are questioning the Koran?
    You are pitting your finite mind against the infinite and question WHAT GOD CAN AND CANNOT DO?

    Regarding your statement about the Christian “logic” of mentioning oranges as apples, please enlighten me about TAUHEED in Islam.

    & regarding Christ’s Death & Resurrection – SHOW ME THE BODY or atleast WHERE IT IS & please note the Church of the Holy Sephulcre in Israel DOES NOT hold Christ’s Body nor the alleged “burial place” in Kashmir.

  443. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 16, 2014 at 10:40 am

    Ashok, God can do everything that He likes to do. We are not to make God do this or that. God has told us in sacred books, Torah, Bible and Quran, what He likes to do and what He does not do.
    We should not use the power of God to do everything that we like.
    It is written in the Quran “What do you wish to do except Allah wish it so?” So be mindful of God’s wishes….
    Ashok please do not use the power of God to do what you like. Otherwise, I could say that God can produce 100 Jesus from a tree…. That will not be a good idea.

  444. Nick

    August 16, 2014 at 10:51 am

    Sorry Zia, I’m afraid I’m being to heavily moderated to continue this. I can’t be challenged and then have my key points moderated out.

  445. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 16, 2014 at 8:29 pm

    Dear Ashok plural tributes used in letters and proclamations are normal, like a letter from the Queen will say, “We are pleased to grant amnesty to the people of that land.’
    That is a normal way for ages past and present to use plural form of speech even for the King or president who is just one person.
    Similarly, in the Quran also plural form is used. It is more a form of speech for respect. Not to be counted as many persons.
    You should pay attention to Zia Shah sahib’s math offered to you about your 1+1+1=1, or 1+1+1+1+1+1=1
    i.e. six gods instead of only three.
    and 1x1x1=1 and 1x1x1x1x1x1 of five persons (parts)=1 so why not also Trinity. Your God could be just a part of group of five gods or it could be part of infinite number of gods.
    That is not the way. You have to stick to One God as preached by Jesus a.s. and Moses a.s. Please forget Trinity because Jesus or Moses a.s. never preached Trinity in their life time. See Bible OT and NT.

  446. Ashok Saldanha

    August 17, 2014 at 9:37 pm

    Nick, I feel sorry for you. Please feel sorry for me too. We seem to be sailing in the same boat in TMT.

  447. Ashok Saldanha

    August 17, 2014 at 9:39 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar,
    I ask Zia Shah a question and you pop up to answer. Anyway after all your thesis on the Trinity, I like the way you have side stepped on answering me about TAUHEED which should put to rest the argument about the TRINITY, and please I do not want any WAHID as an answer.

  448. Ashok Saldanha

    August 17, 2014 at 9:47 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, you cant have your cake and eat it too. Your reply to PLURAL TRIBUTES is at the most laughable with your reply “plural tributes used in letters and proclamations are normal, like a letter from the Queen will say, “We are pleased to grant amnesty to the people of that land.’”
    When many a time muslims (Ahmedias included) have tried to get out of sticky systems by using the WE word to suit their purpose.

    It is surprising that you say that allah cannot become a human being or rather does not wish to become one. Is that why allah comes of as a god who is FAR OFF FROM HIS CREATION unlike Yahweh whose WORD BECAME FLESH – John 3:16.

  449. Ghulam Sarwar

    August 18, 2014 at 9:49 am

    Ashok, you are denying the common practice of using the plural form of pronouns in Royal Proclamations. It is common in the letters in these days too.
    Your problem about word tauheed in Quran. It is not there but hundreds of times it is stated in the Quran that God is One. God is One. That brings and establishes Tauheed in Quran.
    But in your bible, neither is there any Trinity nor any explicit mention that there are gods beside the God Almighty or there are other gods too. In fact there is clear mention of just One God at few places in the Bible NT and many places in the Bible OT. You are bound to take notice of the teachings of bible OT because it is an integral part of your bible in circulation. And the Bible OT does not allow the thought of any other God beside the One God. So where is your Trinity?
    You have no legs to stand upon!

  450. demetrius

    August 18, 2014 at 6:23 pm

    Jesus’ life was prophesied in the old testament and his coming was to fulfil the prophesy……Jesus being God in human form sujected himself to normal human living so to fulfill the will of the Godhead, ie, the father son and holy spirit….Jesus died, went to hades but death had no power over him and he arose from the dead…..a core belief of the muslim religion and I love my muslim friends but there are boundaries is that god said that the first child to be born of abraham and sarah is to be the child of promise……how in heaven can you then say ismael is the child of promise when ishmael was born of the servant? Don’t try to portray to portray a faultless faith…mohammed himself was suspect in his teachings and beliefs…..on the topic thanks for murdering my Christian brethren in iraq…..because of your perfect faith and please don’t come with your argument that you all don’t teach war! Jihad….. live in peace….learn and debate….at least our religions teach about love

  451. Rafiq A. Tschannen

    August 18, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    It Seems that the Christians discrimination Dates back thpusamds of years. We Muslims treat our children equally, whether they are from Senior or junior wives.

  452. demetrius

    August 18, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    GHULAM john1:1- in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God……vs 14 and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory the glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace and truth. Jesus dwelt on earth…we beheld his glory in that he healed the sick through miracle work…..the diciples ONLY were given the power to do miracles…by inspiration of the holy spirit…God, Jesus and holy spirit are three in one….three personalities. …one Godhead.Hope this clarifies any misunderstandings…thanks for your time guys….have a blessed night

  453. demetrius

    August 18, 2014 at 7:54 pm

    Haha you talking about discrimination? Seriously okay….firstly it’s not discriminating…..ismael received an inheritance from Abraham….he howrver was not the child of promise as I clearly stated before.

  454. Ashok Saldanha

    August 18, 2014 at 9:09 pm

    Ghulam Sarwar, WHAT DID CHRIST MEAN by saying “Go Baptise in the name of the Father, Son & Spirit”? Was this “ADDED LATER” to “promulgate the Doctrine of the Trinity”? OR was Christ talking about the Triune UNITY of the ONE GOD?

    & at Christ’s Baptism, the Father, Son & the Spirit are manifest. MAYBE this to was ADDED LATER to “promulgate the Doctrine of the Trinity”

    Those were just 2 points from the NT.

    Read Genesis in the OT the 1st Chapter itself talks about the Trinity – or MAYBE this to was ADDED LATER to “promulgate the Doctrine of the Trinity”

    & Ghulam Sarwar you have overlooked to reply to my comment
    “It is surprising that you say that allah cannot become a human being or rather does not wish to become one. Is that why allah comes of as a god who is FAR OFF FROM HIS CREATION unlike Yahweh whose WORD BECAME FLESH – John 3:16.”

  455. Namelee

    August 19, 2014 at 3:41 am

    Ghulam Sarwar,

    “–YOU SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO ZIA SHAH SAHIB’S MATH OFFERED TO YOU ABOUT YOUR 1+1+1+1=1—”.
    It should be clear by now that it is not in every situation that 1+1=2. 1 spirit + 1 body=1 human being, according to muhammadans. What is true of 1+1 is equally true of 1+1+1.
    In Boolean Algebra, 1+1+1=1. That is science.
    Writing on the annunciation, Muhammad quotes his god as saying “WE SENT OUR SPIRIT” to appear to Mary as a man. It cannot be denied that the pronoun ‘WE’ denotes more than one individual.
    When muhammadans argue against the Holy Trinity, they ignore the fact t